The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs. And the first question, Vikki Howells.

<p>Food Waste </p>

Vikki Howells AC: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage the recycling of food waste in Wales? OAQ(5)0157(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Food waste recycling and prevention are promoted through the Recycle for Wales behaviour change campaign, run by WRAP Cymru, including the Love Food Hate Waste app. I’m discussing with local authorities the possibility of funding an enhanced behaviour change campaign, to include further reinforcing these messages.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It’s certainly so important that we encourage households to maximise the recycling of food waste in Wales. I’m very proud of the fact that, last year, the anaerobic digestion facility at Bryn Pica in my constituency transformed food waste into enough electricity to power more than 2,500 homes for the calendar year. How can the Welsh Government best promote the message that, if households do create food waste—and public services and private businesses too—it is properly recycled, so that it can be harnessed to power homes and buildings?

Lesley Griffiths AC: It is really important that householders do understand what happens, and we’ve now got 99 per cent of households able to put their food waste forward to be used in this way. WRAP Cymru work with local authorities across Wales to increase food waste contribution for the anaerobic digester hubs. And, last year, one local authority saw food waste levels double as a result of the campaign, and the overall campaign approach has supported a drop in household food waste levels in Wales, to lower levels than anywhere else in the UK. Again, we’re leading on this. That’s a decrease of 12 per cent.

Russell George AC: Cabinet Secretary, of course, I accept it’s the job of local authorities to encourage residents to recycle their food waste. But can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what considerations you’ve given to a national, Wales-wide campaign, to encourage people to think about the way they shop and plan their meals in regard to reducing food waste?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I mentioned, in my answer to Vikki Howells, the Love Food Hate Waste app. I don’t know whether you’ve seen it, but it’s a new app that’s just been published. I’m kind of in two minds about it. It’s based on Tinder, so it’s sort of putting the two matches together, if you like. So, if you’ve got a potato left over on this day, and an egg left over on this day, how do you match them? But it’s very early days, so we’re having a look at how that’s going. But I suppose it’s innovative ways—it might appeal to younger people, as well. So, we’re going to see how that campaign is going. But I think that might make people, kind of, think more about their shopping habits.

Gareth Bennett AC: Going back to anaerobic digestion, Cardiff council and the Vale of Glamorgan Council have had a joint operation to do this. I wondered what you thought of the take-up of this kind of scheme by local councils. How has that been so far, in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, anaerobic digestion is getting more popular, and we are seeing more. I’ve got one in my constituency—I think it was one of the first in Wales—and we certainly are seeing a few more. Natural Resources Wales are responsible for regulating them. You will be aware of some issues. Hefin David raised some issues around this, in business statement yesterday, I think. So, we do need to see more of this, but it does need to be regulated in an appropriate way.

<p>Technical Advice Note 20</p>

Bethan Sayed AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on progress regarding Technical Advice Note 20? OAQ(5)0158(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. I intend to republish a revised technical advice note 20 on planning and the Welsh language before summer recess. The revised TAN will support the aims of the Government’s new Welsh language strategy, Cymraeg 2050, and incorporate key messages from a new Welsh language risk assessment framework for major developments.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for that, but the previous consultation concluded in March of last year, which is 15 months ago now, and people are concerned that there is a lack of leadership in this area. So, how do you expect councillors, and the Planning Inspectorate, to work in line with the higher status afforded to the Welsh language via the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 if there is no movement on this issue? And, isn’t it clear from the decision not to mention the Welsh language once in the letter regarding the Pen y Ffridd development in Bangor—an application rejected by the council, partly because of its language impact—that there is no priority for the Welsh language in that regard. How, then, do you, as Minister, intend the new technical advice note, when it published, to take into account these issues, and to do so in a timely manner?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I am unable to comment on the Pen y Ffridd appeal. Obviously, it’s before Welsh Ministers for determination at the present time. I have to say that the revised TAN won’t include wholesale changes. I think the current version continues to provide sound advice to developers and local authorities in the meantime.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, obviously the ability to determine the TAN guidance that’s given by Welsh Government is a vitally important measure in any planning system. The role of community councils and parish councils in playing their part in determining applications is very much overlooked very often, and there is a lack of understanding of exactly how the technical advice notes can assist town and community councils in making their deliberations more fruitful for the communities they serve. What work does your department undertake to assist in developing the understanding of the technical advice notes that are put out by the planning department, so that they can filter right the way through the planning system, and communities can have confidence that their interests are being protected?

Lesley Griffiths AC: We constantly monitor planning policy and TANs, and, obviously, update guidance to local authorities. The way it’s disseminated then to community councils and parish councils is very important, because, as you say, they do have an important role to play in planning applications. So, that’s work that officials do with local authorities, and that information is then disseminated down.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, section 17 of the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 introduced a requirement for applicants to carry out pre-application consultations—I’m now going to refer to them as PACs—with the community and technical consultees. Have you made any assessment of how this is operating now that it’s been in place for 15 months?

Lesley Griffiths AC: That work is currently being undertaken.

David Melding AC: I’m relieved that it is being undertaken, because this was an important reform to make the planning process more efficient and effective. Members will know that it is a requirement on major developments, such as housing developments of 10 or more houses, or developments on a site of one hectare or more. Now, one of the prime intentions is to engage the local community and enable them to have their views heard on significant applications. I wonder if you are going to instruct your department to make a careful assessment of how these community responses are being used to improve the planning process.

Lesley Griffiths AC: That will be part of the assessment and the monitoring, because I think it’s very important that we do see an improvement in that area.

David Melding AC: I agree with you because I think the advantage of a pre-planning process is that the very real concerns a community may have can then be addressed, and then can shape the application, but the thrust of the application can continue in a moderated, adapted form. Another thing I think you need to look at, because, in the discussions I’ve had, for instance with housing associations, architects and builders, the Act itself makes a requirement that developers should consult with specified persons or statutory consultees during the PAC stages, but, of course, there’s no requirement for these consultees to respond. But, we are finding that, sometimes, no response comes in pre-application, and, then, an infrastructure company, a utility—all statutory consultees—then raise a major objection during the formal part of the planning application process, which is obviously undermining, or would undermine if this became common practice, the whole basis of these reforms. And it’s important for the social and economic objectives we have for future generations that we improve planning and have proper, regulated, effective planning so that our communities can thrive and flourish.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t disagree with you, and, obviously, with the implementation of the planning Act, it’s very important that we do see the improvements to which you refer.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee has published a report today on using snares in Wales. Many of the recommendations you will respond to in due time, of course, but I think there is one recommendation that you could respond to today. Recommendation 7 states that the use of snares that don’t comply with your own Government’s code on land owned by the Welsh Government should be prohibited. I think this is a simple and positive step that you could take now, to show leadership and to promote only the use of snares that comply with your own code for efficiency and the welfare of wild animals. Will you confirm today that you’re willing to do that?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’ve received the report and haven’t had the chance to read it yet. As you say, I will be responding in the usual way. Regarding that, I would certainly hope to be able to do that. I think that if we can’t comply with our own code, then it’s not worth having. So, I would confirm that.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for that positive response, and I look forward to reading your formal response too. But I do think that that shows the leadership that is necessary, and, as you know, we need to use the snares that comply with the code. It’s difficult to get a hold of them, but you’re giving some leadership there.If I could turn to energy now, we are still waiting, of course, for a decision on the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Since the election, I’ve written to Liz Truss, who now holds some of the purse strings in the Treasury, and have urged her to proceed with the financial permissions in order to lead in the area and put Wales in the vanguard of an industry that is sure to develop quickly. There’s £1 billion available for Northern Ireland, partly to clear up their own mess on the wood energy scheme, which demonstrates clearly that the Treasury can provide funding when the will is there. What have you done and what’s the Welsh Government done since the general election, therefore, to ensure that the tidal lagoon in Swansea bay does proceed?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you have to accept that the UK Government have been very tardy with their response to the Hendry review and obviously their announcements around Swansea bay tidal lagoon. I wrote, a fortnight ago again, to Greg Clark, asking when the response would be forthcoming. I picked up in the media today that those questions were side-stepped yesterday in the Houses of Parliament. I think we need to know what their position is. I think my first response that I received from Greg Clark said that the UK Government would be responding in due course. Well, ‘in due course’ means nothing to me. How long’s a piece of string? So, I do think that we need to know. So, as I say, I did write to Greg Clark about two weeks ago.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for confirming that, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m sure, if necessary, you will remind the Westminster Government that this Assembly has voted unanimously in favour of the plan, having seen and studied the independent review by Charles Hendry, commissioned by the previous Westminster Government, which said very clearly that this should proceed as a matter for a pathfinder project and at no cost, almost, or pain, if you like, to Westminster to invest in that.There is one aspect of energy that is completely in your hands and that is that around community schemes and hydropower. My colleague, Sian Gwenllian, raised this with the First Minister yesterday and I’ll raise it with you today. I think we’ll both be raising it until we get a satisfactory answer, to be honest, which is the effect of revaluation on hydroelectricity and hydro schemes in particular. I’ve had a letter from the British Hydropower Association, which sets out that most independent hydro schemes, which include community ones, of course, would have previous rateable values of approximately 10 per cent of their revenues, which is similar to other businesses, and they are now seeing those values as a result of the revaluation increase two, three or fourfold, and in some cases, an increase of 900 per cent. This is clearly in danger of cutting off a source of investment for an important niche, perhaps, in some parts, but an important renewable energy industry that we have here in Wales and the potential for further expansion in Wales. So, will you now discuss with the rest of the Cabinet, but particularly the Cabinet Secretary for finance, to see whether some sort of relief can be put in place for renewable energy schemes such as these, similar to what’s happened in Scotland, so that we don’t choke off this growing industry?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I’ll be very happy to have that discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Finance, and then I’ll update the Member.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Last time I questioned the Cabinet Secretary on agriculture a few weeks ago, we were discussing regulations applying to agriculture post Brexit. The burden of my question was that we should reassess all regulations to see if we could reduce them where there was no substantial diminution of public benefit. Part of the Cabinet Secretary’s answer seems to have caused a certain amount of consternation amongst some farmers, because she said, ‘Well, of course, this could mean an increase in regulation.’ I’m hoping that today she might be able to put that into a bit of perspective. I’ll give one illustration of how, in England at the moment, farmers are campaigning to relax hedge-cutting restrictions in August. Of course, we don’t have them in Wales. There’s a short window of opportunity between harvesting summer crops and planting winter crops, and it creates problems for farmers if they can’t do things like hedge cutting and other management issues in August. So, that’s an example of how having regulations that are more proportionate are in the interests of farmers, but don’t cause any problems for public benefit.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think the consternation amongst farmers was increased by a bit of mischief making from the Welsh Conservatives and the press release they put out. I think what I said was that I’ve got about 7,000 pieces of legislation and regulations in my portfolio, and I think I actually said ‘a case-by-case basis’, but what I was saying was that we wouldn’t allow environmental standards, for instance, to slip, and we could strengthen some in places if they were deemed to be needed. So, you’re right. We need to look at it very pragmatically to make sure that it is proportionate.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that reply. I’m afraid my reading list is not quite as extensive as hers; it does not extend to Conservative press releases. But—[Interruption.] But can I raise a related issue? At the moment, the European Union is considering reducing permitted levels of zinc oxide, which is an important chemical in the post-weaning of pigs to reduce problems with diarrhoea. There doesn’t seem to be any problem with zinc levels in the ground in Britain or in Wales, but, if zinc oxides were to be banned, or significant restrictions were to be introduced on their use, this could mean wider use of antibiotics and that could obviously lead to microbial resistance. Calculations have been made that, if you delayed weaning of piglets from 28 to 42 days as one means of compensating for not being able to use this chemical, that would cost half a litter per year per sow, which would be £156 per sow, which would be a significant diminution in farmers’ incomes for those who specialise in pigs. So, can the Cabinet Secretary tell me whether she is making representations on behalf of Welsh farmers against the current proposal on the table in the EU?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, that hasn’t been raised with me, that issue, but I’d be very happy to look at it, and, again, I could write to the Member. But certainly there’s nobody in the pig industry that’s raised that directly with me.

Neil Hamilton AC: I’ll be happy to write to the Cabinet Secretary, if she would appreciate that. At the current time, a lot of uncertainty obviously exists in rural communities about the impact of Brexit, and this uncertainty is likely to continue for some time. I think it’s very important that we keep things in perspective. We all hope, of course, there will be a deal at the end of the day that will, broadly speaking, preserve access to European markets as they exist now and vice versa. But isn’t it important for us to recognise that agriculture, although a very important section of industry and community, is very, very small in the context of national GDP? It’s only about 2 per cent in the UK, and the report that we’re going to debate later this afternoon from the climate change committee provides some useful figures on this, that GVA in Wales from agriculture is only £385 million—0.69 per cent of our Welsh national income. So, whatever problems might be thrown up by the Brexit process, it should be perfectly possible to finance them from existing budgets once the ability of the British and Welsh Governments is given to them to do so by leaving the European Union, with which, of course, we’re in a substantial deficit. So, therefore, farmers have very little to fear from Brexit, because we’ll be able to finance whatever transitional difficulties arise.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I’m afraid I don’t share your rosy view of that. The agricultural sector is so important to Wales, and farmers are very concerned. They will have heard you and they can choose to believe you or not. But we’ve only had assurance that we will have that funding for them until 2020. After that there is a black hole. Those discussions are ongoing. We’re putting an incredible amount of pressure on the UK Government, who said Wales would not lose a penny if we were to leave the EU. So, those are discussions I’ve had. I’ve already had an initial conversation with Michael Gove. I’ve made that view very clear to him also. So, you know—as I say, I don’t share your rosy view. I do hope that that funding does continue for them, and we will be fighting for them.

<p>Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon</p>

David Rees AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the assessments taken by Natural Resources Wales in relation to the proposal for the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon? OAQ(5)0161(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Natural Resources Wales is working closely with the developer on the proposed application and the organisation has made significant progress on the marine licensing application. I understand the principal outstanding issue is the potential impacts on migratory fish and how to model these impacts, on which I’m unable to comment further due to my potential role in the licensing process.

David Rees AC: I thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. In your answer to Simon Thomas earlier, you highlighted the delays that the UK Government have been experiencing, but, with the general election now gone, perhaps we can see those delays and excuses for those delays disappear. But marine licensing is an important issue, because those delays could disappear and we could have a decision by the UK Government, but we still have a marine licence issue. I spoke to Natural Resources Wales last week and, as you say, the discrepancies between the two ends are narrowing, but we need a timescale, I think, for this solution. Are you prepared now to meet Natural Resources Wales and give them a timescale to work to so we can have a marine licence in place, either ‘yes’ or ‘no’, and we know a decision quickly?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I do meet Natural Resources Wales at least once a month and have those discussions. There are no statutory deadlines set for marine licensing. I think the most important thing is that the company and NRW work very closely together, and they are doing that. I’ve been reassured on that point. But, as I say, I do have an appellant role, so it will come to me if there is an appeal.

Darren Millar AC: Tidal lagoons, of course, are also an important feature that could be of benefit to the north Wales coastline, in terms of economic development and in terms of coastal protection. But one of the things that potential developers are saying to me is that they could do with some seed funding in order to fund the research that might be necessary, on an open-source basis, available for anybody to access, in order that they can take their projects forward. I wonder what discussions you have had with your colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for the economy, on the possibility of the Welsh Government investing in that research in order to make some progress on the possibility of such a development off the coast of north Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am aware, obviously, of the plans for a further tidal lagoon in the Colwyn bay area. I haven’t had any specific discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure around this. What I think we really do need is that response from the UK Government. We need it so that we—you know, we’re incredibly supportive of the principles of a tidal lagoon. I think it’s really important that the UK Government also recognise that we have a big part to play in this. So, once we’ve had the response from the UK Government, if there is then, we think, a need for that further research, we can certainly look at that.

Dai Lloyd AC: Following the Conservative-DUP deal this week—I don’t know if you’ve heard about that, Cabinet Secretary; and I note your earlier comments to Simon Thomas, but the tidal lagoon is vitally important to Swansea and Wales—will you be specifically making representations to the Secretary of State for Wales on this matter as well, as one of eight Welsh Conservative MPs who must now stand up for Wales? We have seen what 10 DUP MPs can do—what price Welsh Conservative MPs standing up for Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Member raises a very important point, and certainly, when I next meet with Alun Cairns, I think that’s a discussion we’d have. But you will have heard the First Minister say yesterday he spoke to the Secretary of State for Wales on Monday, I think it was, when we will have raised that.

<p>Glastir </p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 4. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to evaluate the administration of the Glastir scheme in Wales? OAQ(5)0152(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The administration of Glastir is reviewed annually, not least in preparation for European Commission scrutiny of the annual accounts. The effectiveness of the suite of Glastir schemes is evaluated through the Glastir monitoring and evaluation programme, which is due to publish its final report shortly.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for the answer, Cabinet Secretary. Delayed Glastir scheme payments can have a significant detrimental impact on farm finances. According to the Farmers’ Union of Wales, by 9 May this year, 22 per cent of claims for work done under Glastir last year still had not been paid, and the Welsh Government’s intention was to pay only 90 per cent of claims by the end of May. Does the Cabinet Secretary accept it is essential that payments to compensate farmers for the work they have undertaken and the cost incurred are made within a reasonable time period, and what action will she take to speed up the payment process, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I do think farmers need that money as quickly as possible. However, you’ll be aware that, firstly, we concentrated on the basic payment scheme, and 90 per cent of people received that funding on the first day that the window opened. In relation to Glastir, we said, from the outset, that we would start paying the Glastir payments in February. We actually started in January because we’d done so well on the basic payment scheme. We actually started a month early, and my officials have been working very hard to progress all but the most complex of Glastir cases by the end of this month—so, by the end of this week. There’ll be a small number of farmers who won’t be paid this week, and they will be written to and explained why that is, but I hope very much that that will be completed by the end of July.

<p>Gower Cockle Industry </p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Gower cockle industry? OAQ(5)0154(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. The Gower cockle industry is an important fishery, which is why Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales funded the study into the mortality issues. The recent announcement on the cockle research programme across Atlantic states will help us to understand and further develop the science and issues relating to the cockle mortality.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response, but, although I welcome any efforts to try and establish the cause of cockle mortality in the area, you will be aware that the local cockle pickers and processors on Gower have declared that they have lost confidence in NRW to get to the root of the problem. The saga, as you know—certainly, we’re aware of this on the Gower peninsula—has dragged on for many years now, and we need solutions for this ancient, traditional industry. They didn’t get the necessary answers in a study conducted in 2012. Why should they have more confidence this time?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, this is an issue that certainly has been on my desk over the past year. I’ve had meetings with Lee Waters and Rebecca Evans and Bethan Jenkins around this. You’re right: the report, when it was published in 2012, couldn’t identify a single, clear cause of the increased mortality, but it did identify a small number of potential factors. Those included overcrowding, parasites, and loss of condition in the cockles post spawning. I think it’s really important that we look at this new research that’s currently being undertaken, and NRW are part of that. If you have anything specific that you’d like to write to me on, I’d be very keen to see.

Suzy Davies AC: Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Natural Resources Wales, of course, have said that this new study is to try and deal with unanswered questions from the 2012 study. When I asked the First Minister about cockle deaths back in February, he said that investigations into cockle mortality in the Burry Inlet were continuing and that a progress review of Welsh Government’s investigation would be released by Natural Resources Wales when complete. Can you explain to me where that progress review fits into what looks like a new study? How does one inform the other? It’s a question, essentially, to make sure that we’re not duplicating any expenditure here, particularly as we’re looking at unanswered questions rather than repeating studies into answered questions.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I haven’t received a recent report from NRW, but I’m certainly happy to ask them what work they’ve got and if they’ve got a report that can be shared with Members in relation to that. This new research, the Atlantic area cockles research, is a major funding programme. I think it’s €3.5 million, if I remember rightly. So, like you, I’d be very upset if there was money being spent in two ways, but I’ll certainly clarify that for Suzy Davies.

Lee Waters. Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, cockles have been harvested off the Gower coast since Roman occupation. Yet, over the last decade, there’s been significant die-off of the cockle beds every year. I welcome the new study, which will, hopefully, address the shortcomings of the 2012 study. Cabinet Secretary, what more can your Government do to ensure that the Penclawdd cockle remains the best in the world and available for generations to come?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Member will have heard my answer to Dai Lloyd’s initial question. I think that’s why it’s important that we do keep taking forward research so that we get that scientific evidence. You will have heard me say that we need to look at the reasons for the increase in cockle mortality. One of the other things that I did pick up from NRW was that water quality wasn’t a factor, so we need to find out what is causing this. As I mentioned, no single clear cause was identified back in the 2012 study.

<p>Basic Payment Scheme</p>

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on basic payment scheme payments? OAQ(5)0164(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government has once again led across the UK in delivering 2016 basic payments. Nearly 90 per cent of eligible farm businesses were paid on the first day of the payment window and 15,435—that’s 99.93 per cent—farm businesses have received payments totalling £224.1 million. There are now 11 eligible farm businesses awaiting their payment. Those claims are complex, or officials are waiting for information from the farm business.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Cabinet Secretary, in a recent written question response, you confirmed that 56 farmers were still waiting for their basic payment scheme funding, and it’s not the first time I’ve had to raise this issue with the Welsh Government about the huge delays. The knock-on effect to our farmers and their families, who are entitled to this money, can be devastating, and it is a failure on the part of your Government as regards due process. Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to release this money and ensure that this situation does not arise again next year? Ble mae’r arian? Mae ein ffermwyr wedi aros digon hir.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t think the Member heard me with my initial answer, because, as I said, it’s now 11—I’m not sure about the date of your previous written question, but it’s now 11. The fact is that 90 per cent—90 per cent—of farm businesses had their payment on the very first day, on 1 December 2016. For the majority of farms that didn’t receive their BPS, it was because of the boundaries between Wales and England. It was down to—. You can shake your head, but I can give you the evidence that it was down to rural payments in England, not our rural payments. I said that we’ve led the way, and we’ve now got just 11 eligible farms.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: On Monday, of course, we got the details of this agreement between the Conservatives and the DUP. Among other things, the agreement extended assurances on the level of farm payments and funding for farm payments to farmers in Northern Ireland until 2022, beyond the assurances that Wales has been given previously. May I ask, therefore: have you now had the same assurances for Wales? If not, what are you doing to ensure that Welsh farmers are treated equally and equitably?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Sorry, in my answer to Neil Hamilton I think I did say 2020, but we have had the same assurance that it is 2022—I think that’s just within the cycle of the new Parliament.

<p>The Fishing Industry</p>

Neil Hamilton AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the security of the Welsh fishing industry post-Brexit? OAQ(5)0160(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Exiting the EU raises many questions and uncertainties for the future of Wales’s fishing industry. Management of fisheries is devolved, and any post-exit arrangements must respect devolution. We are working closely with industry, communities and other partners across Wales to create dynamic forward-looking Welsh fisheries policies.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. Most people, I think, believe that the common fisheries policy has been a total economic, environmental and social disaster, and has caused catastrophic damage to our marine ecology. [Interruption.] Only somebody who doesn’t have a coastline to his constituency could be as ignorant as the Member for Blaenau Gwent in this respect. We’ve also seen the plundering by industrial fleets of our UK waters and the devastation of the British fishing industry, including that of Wales. Is it not vitally important that we recover the right to control fishing within the 6 to 12-mile limit, which is subject to the 1964 London convention on fishing? It will be necessary to leave that convention in order to do so. Will the Cabinet Secretary assure Welsh fishermen that the Welsh Government will support that measure?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You’ll be aware of our recently published White Paper, ‘Securing Wales’ Future’, I’m sure. That makes very clear that we need a fairer rebalancing of UK fishing quotas. Welsh vessels only hold about 1 per cent of the quotas in the Welsh areas of interest, and that simply is not good enough. We do expect the amount of fish available to Welsh vessels to increase.The Secretary of State was very clear that he expected UK fishermen to have an increased share of the fishing opportunities in UK waters and I will ensure that Welsh fishermen receive their fair share. I work very closely with the fishing industry and we have made it very clear that we will continue to support them, because I think there are going to be many challenges ahead over the next couple of years, and there’s going to be some significant change. You’ll also be aware that, in the Queen’s Speech, it was suddenly announced there was going to be an agricultural Bill and a fisheries Bill. We had no knowledge of that. But, again, when I spoke to Michael Gove following the Queen’s Speech last Wednesday, I made it very clear that devolution must be respected and that joint decision making on UK-level issues is absolutely essential.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, in your written statement regarding your meeting at the recent EU fisheries council to discuss European fishing opportunities for 2017, you referred to securing a modest increase to allow catches of 250 kg per month for netters in relation to commercial sea bass fishing. Can you provide an assessment of the impact this action has had in the first part of this year, and can you tell us what your intention is on this matter moving forward, given that stock remains in a recovering state?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I was going to say I don’t think it was that recent, it was probably about December. I will have to write to the Member regarding the progress that we’ve made over the first part of this year.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I’ve seen the worst of European fisheries negotiations, as the Cabinet Secretary has, but I have to say it’s complete codswallop—if that’s not the worst pun in the world—to say that it has not been a success. Because back in the mid 1970s the peak of cod in the North sea was landed at 270,000 tonnes. By 2006, it was 44,000 tonnes due to overcapacity and overfishing for a diminishing stock. It is now, by the way, back to 165,000 tonnes and the Marine Conservation Society is now looking to actually brand it as fit for sale on UK shelves. So, when they get it right, they get it right. But could I ask the Cabinet Secretary, first, that there will be no withdrawal from actually sustainable fisheries, whether it’s in Welsh waters or in partnership with the UK, but secondly, how feasible is it, in the discussions with the DEFRA Secretary of State, that repatriation of quota to UK fishermen and skippers will happen? Because there are certainly UK fishermen who fish in other EU waters—roughly a proportion of one in four. Are we going to say that we’re taking their quotas away in order to get rid of people out of our waters? What happens to Scottish fishermen who have quotas and licensing in England’s waters? Are we going to push the south-west’s fishermen out of Welsh waters? These are difficult questions, and for anybody to pretend that this is as simple as ‘Give us our fish back’ is a joke.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can absolutely assure the Member, regarding sustainable fishing, that that is absolutely at the top of the agenda. I haven’t had those discussions yet with the Secretary of State. You’ll be aware he’s only been in post a couple of weeks and I just had a very brief conversation. He did make it clear that he’s coming to the Royal Welsh Show. So, those are discussions that I’m sure can take place that day also. I have to say that fisheries is one of the most complex areas—the Member will know—within my portfolio. But I have to say, on the negotiations that we have, as the UK Government and the three devolved administrations, it was very good to see the work and it’s led me to believe that those UK frameworks that we are perhaps seeking to have, as we negotiate coming out of the EU—that those negotiations can work. I think we do have a framework that works very successfully and that we can follow.

<p>Bovine TB</p>

Mark Reckless AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an estimate of the number of farms suffering from bovine TB that are able to remove and humanely kill infected badgers? OAQ(5)0159(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: We will consider a test to remove intervention on the 50 to 60 farms that have a persistent TB breakdown after a full veterinary epidemiological investigation has shown that cattle measures have been fully applied, and that badgers are the probable source of infection.

Mark Reckless AC: I know those 50 to 60 farmers will appreciate that opportunity. Could the Cabinet Secretary say perhaps on what timescale they might be able to do that and whether she then expects there to be expansion of those numbers? And can she also confirm that it’s only infected badgers that will be humanely killed? Does she agree with me that that actually could be the humane thing to do for the badger, rather than letting it loose to die and suffer from TB?

Lesley Griffiths AC: On your latter point, yes, it will be only the infected badgers and I do think it will be good for the badger population. I think I made that very clear in my statement on bovine TB last week. In relation to the 50 to 60 farms, those are the farms that are in that chronic TB breakdown—some of them for 16 or 17 years—that will have these bespoke plans. So, at the current time, we have about 10 of those bespoke plans that are more or less completed, so they will then be able to start that process and have that veterinary assessment that I referred to in my initial answer. So, this is now ongoing; we are now rolling that out. From 1 October, we’ll be rolling out most of the refreshed eradication programme that we discussed in the Chamber last week.

<p>Local Air Quality Management Guidance</p>

Suzy Davies AC: 9. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the expectations placed on local authorities as a result of the local air quality management in Wales guidance? OAQ(5)0155(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: I issued new guidance this month and will follow it up with a letter to all incoming local authority administrations next week, highlighting their air quality management duties and the importance of following the principles of our future generations legislation, and of meeting deadlines setting guidance for reporting and action planning.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that very helpful answer, actually. It was 15 June, I think, actually, that you issued the guidance, and in that guidance there’s an obligation on local authorities to plan for the long term and prevent problems from getting worse or arising in the first place. This is before your letter, but just four days later on 19 June, Swansea council’s cabinet member for the environment said that the local authority is fully compliant with all air quality legislation. Now, obviously, following guidance helps people comply with legislation, so considering that Swansea’s monitoring system, which is meant to reduce localised air pollution, is still not up and running despite being installed in 2012, can you say that Swansea council is complying with legislation? Perhaps, does your guidance need to go a little further in its explicitness, if that’s a word? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You’re right; I did issue policy guidance on 15 June because that coincided with Clean Air Day. So, that was the reason for doing that, and I wanted, as I say, to bring their management regimes into line. I will be writing to them again next week, so specifically in Swansea’s case, I can ask those specific points.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Sadly, I’m afraid that Cardiff is not compliant with air quality legislation, and the spotlight was on Cardiff in a television programme yesterday about the amount of housing that’s being developed around Cardiff without the transport links to go with it. Is it your view that local authorities, in carrying out their planning duties, need to bear in mind the need for connectivity when they’re developing new communities, so that they’re not actually massively increasing their pollution problem? And, obviously, the metro plays a huge part in ensuring that we aren’t all drowning in poisonous air.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I picked up today in the media that the leader of Cardiff city council was talking about the need for more public transport use and cycling in relation to the issue you raise. We know transport, really, does not help with air quality, particularly in urban areas. We had a debate yesterday on decarbonisation of the public sector. Well, this is so much a part of the decarbonisation agenda. I mentioned that we’ve set up a ministerial task and finish group, which the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure sits on, and one of the things we’re going to discuss at our next meeting is low-carbon vehicles, for instance, because it’s so important that as we make that transition into a low-carbon economy and in relation to transport, these are taken into account in relation to our air quality.

Mike Hedges AC: Air quality on Neath Road in Hafod in Swansea is amongst the worst in Wales, due to both its importance as the main road from the north-east into Swansea city centre, and its topography. I welcome the Morfa distributor road, which will reduce air pollution on Neath Road. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that a bypass is not the solution to all problems of poor air quality, but, in some cases and certain circumstances where the road is a major road and the topography is such that nothing else can be done, that it can be?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I agree with you, but I have to say we do need to do more to tackle emissions from vehicles in urban areas, so I very much welcome measures that do help reduce public exposure to air pollution, and that includes infrastructure projects such as you refer to. I know the Morfa distributor road in Swansea is due to be completed in the very near future. That’s been supported by Welsh Government via our local transport fund in recent years.

<p>River Pollution</p>

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 10. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on measures to tackle river pollution in Wales? OAQ(5)0153(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The river basin management plans, published in 2015, include detailed assessments of all Welsh rivers and measures that we are taking to improve their quality. Currently 37 per cent of our rivers achieve good status under the water framework directive and we aim to increase this to 42 per cent by 2021.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for the reply, Cabinet Secretary. One of the duties of Natural Resources Wales is to monitor the health of Welsh rivers and take action against those who pollute them. Figures show that Natural Resources Wales received nearly 6,900 reports of river pollution between 2013 and 2016. About 60 per cent of these reports were investigated but resulted in only 41 prosecutions and 10 civil sanctions. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that Natural Resources Wales is fit for purpose and what action will she take to improve protection of Welsh waters and Welsh rivers from pollution? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Certainly, in the year I’ve been in this portfolio, we’ve seen an increase in the number, particularly, of significant pollution incidents in our watercourses, most notably in the Teifi in west Wales and also the Honddu in Monmouthshire. I do think NRW are fit for purpose. I expect them to fully use their legal powers in dealing with these cases. I know they are sometimes frustrated that so few come to prosecution. I think there’s a really big piece of work to be done around pollution of farms. You’ll be aware agricultural pollution is often a cause and that’s the discussion that I have with farmers. I’ve just gone out to consultation in relation nitrate vulnerable zones and will be coming forward with a statement in the autumn. I think, as I say, there is a big piece of work to be done and it’s a piece of work that we are undertaking.

Adam Price AC: The Cabinet Secretary will recall the incident in my constituency with Valero and the leak of oil into Nant Pibwr. At the time, NRW had carried out a number of tests in terms of the soil and the water, and they said that they weren’t able to publish the results in case they needed to use those in any legal proceedings. Can the Cabinet Secretary give us an update as to whether those data are now available for publication, and has NRW decided what legal steps they are to take in this case?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The last time I discussed this with NRW—which is probably about five weeks ago, I would say—certainly, they weren’t, still, in a position to publish it. I’d be very happy to put it on the agenda for my next meeting with NRW and update Adam Price via a letter.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question—Hefin David.

<p>Support for Veterans</p>

Hefin David AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the support available for veterans in Caerphilly? OAQ(5)0164(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Our programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, makes clear our commitment to supporting armed forces veterans in Wales, which includes those living in Caerphilly.

Hefin David AC: I know, Cabinet Secretary, first-hand, from my constituency casework, that the issues faced by veterans range from housing, homelessness to healthcare. Research carried out by Swansea University and the Forces in Mind Trust has suggested that veterans may be more at risk than non-veterans of developing gambling problems and this vulnerability may be related to experience of prior traumatic events. Gambling is a complex addiction and has many contributing factors and perhaps it should be treated in the same way as alcohol and drug addiction. As the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for policy in relation to the armed forces and veterans in Wales, will you work with your colleague the Minister for Social Services and Public Health to look at the health and wider impact of problem gambling among veterans, so that their particular needs can be addressed and they’re able to access any appropriate help that may be available?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think the Member raises a very important point there. I was pleased last week to be at the launch of the Veterans’ Gateway service, a one-stop shop for veterans and family members to access services and support in place. Of course, there are lots of agencies that veterans can be signposted to. We have a cross-cutting theme across Government in terms of supporting veterans, and I’m pleased that I also chair an advisory group that veterans sit on, in terms of making sure that they give me proper advice, proper quality advice, in terms of their needs, and I will ask them to consider that in the near future.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, last week the Conservative Government in Westminster announced that a new 24-hour helpline for armed forces services veterans from across the United Kingdom returning to civil life would be based in Nantgarw. This helpline will provide a one-stop shop offering guidance on housing, employment, finance and mental and physical health, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming this announcement, which will greatly improve the support available for veterans in Caerphilly, Wales, and the United Kingdom as a whole? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m glad the Member raised that very issue today. I was at the launch of the Nantgarw event only last week, and it was well attended, and, of course, I know your colleague Darren Millar does an awful lot with the armed forces, too, in the cross-party group. I would say this very important 24-hour helpline is an important one, and I was very pleased to show my support when the launch was taken forward last week.

<p>Armed Forces Day</p>

Hefin David AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government support for Armed Forces Day? OAQ(5)0161(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. We are proud to contribute annual funding support to deliver Armed Forces Days in both north and south Wales.

Hefin David AC: Huw Irranca-Davies says there’s a theme emerging, but it’s a slightly different focus. I was delighted to attend the Armed Forces Day celebrations in the Owain Glyndŵr fields in Caerphilly on Saturday, and the First Minister attended, together with the Secretary of State for Wales. It was a great pleasure to see many festivities, such as a Spitfire flying past and march of the regimental band of the Royal Welsh, and members of the Women’s Royal Army Corps were present in celebrating their centenary this year. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming the support given to Armed Forces Day in 2017 by the Welsh Government, by the UK Government, by local authorities and numerous community and voluntary groups, and indeed by many members of the public? Will he also agree that we must continue not only to support Armed Forces Day but also the services on which veterans in our communities depend after leaving the forces so that they can access the best services that they deserve?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and I pay tribute to the many reservists and armed forces families and serving personnel, right the way across the UK and the world. We should be very proud of our history and support for them. I know the First Minister attended the Caerphilly event also with the Member, and we’re very pleased again to make support for that. I’ve recently been informed that next year, Conwy County Borough Council have been successful in their application to host the national UK Armed Forces Day, to which the Welsh Government will be providing £135,000 of contribution for them to deliver this prestigious event.

Nick Ramsay AC: I’m grateful to Hefin David for keeping the focus on this issue this afternoon. Cabinet Secretary, last week I attended a ‘fly the flag for our armed forces’ event at Monmouthshire County Council’s headquarters just outside Usk, and it was a very well-attended event. It goes to show how many not just Assembly Members but people across Wales want to honour our armed forces and recognise the very difficult job that they do. I understand that on Armed Forces Day, Stagecoach offered free travel to armed forces personnel carrying an ID card and to veterans carrying a veterans badge. I think that Stagecoach have signed a covenant to support the armed forces community. I think that’s a really worthwhile type of programme. Is that something that Welsh Government have been supporting and would look to support more in the future?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and we have the armed forces covenant in place right across Wales, and the UK, actually, and all local authorities are taking part in that. It is based locally. We have free swimming for some veterans in areas that the Welsh Government support. I take advice from the ministerial advisory group for the armed forces, and they certainly tell me about how welcome they feel in Wales and what more we can do to contribute and recognise the service that they’ve been engaged in across the world.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, we celebrate Armed Forces Day each year in order to reaffirm our sincere appreciation for those who serve in the armed forces and to show our support for the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect our country and our way of life. I was delighted when the UK Government and the DUP reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to the armed forces covenant. In this spirit, Cabinet Secretary, will you reaffirm your Government’s commitment to the covenant and ensure that service families and veterans are given whatever support they need, which is, after all, a small price to pay for their sacrifice?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and what I can say is that, in Wales, we are very much at the forefront of delivery for our veterans and armed forces families, and we have many schemes in place. We invest £585,000 per annum into the veterans’ NHS scheme, working purely with veterans to access services—2,900 referrals through the scheme received. Also, I would ask the Member to perhaps put her influence into the UK Government, for we have in Wales, since April 2016, a higher disregard of £25 per week for veterans receiving war disablement pensions when accessing all forms of social care, and from April 2017, a full disregard will apply to this. That happens in Wales, but not in England yet.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from the party spokespeople. UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I note that in the Welsh Government’s legislative programme, you’re now proposing to legislate in the area of letting agency fees, which I think is a welcome development. There was support from various opposition parties and some Members of your own party for this, so I’m glad that you are now moving towards legislating in this area. Now, I know you needed to consider evidence from elsewhere before you took any action. I wondered where your considerations had led you to. I know there were possible issues over whether, if letting agency fees were banned, it would lead to rent being pushed up instead. I know that research was undertaken about the effects of doing this in Scotland, so I wondered what your thoughts were on this or any other related issue.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very pleased I can count on the support of the UKIP Members in taking forward our legislation on letting agency fees, which it is our intention to introduce, as the First Minister make clear yesterday. The sticking point was purely that of displacement of cost, and we would have to be convinced that the displacement of cost wasn’t attributed to the rents by letting agents. I know many Members, including Jenny Rathbone on our benches, have been keen to pursue this very issue.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks for that, and I hope that the legislation is taken forward and is, ultimately, effective. But going on to another issue that was covered in ‘Taking Wales Forward’: nursery places. There was a Welsh Government commitment to providing 30 hours a week of free childcare for working parents of three and four-year-olds. The intention was to pilot new schemes starting this coming September to cover approximately 10 per cent of eligible families. So, I wondered what information there was about where the pilots will take place and on what basis your decision was taken as to why to initiate in those particular areas.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’ve issued several statements on the childcare pledge, and I’m really looking forward to the start of that programme developing from September of this year. Indeed, in Blaenau Gwent, in my colleague Alun Davies’s constituency, the whole of Blaenau Gwent will be considered as a pilot scheme, and, therefore, our young children having free childcare places for working parents. This is the most dynamic childcare pledge in the whole of the UK, which we’re starting to pilot here in Wales. I would refer the Member to my statement in terms of the areas that this will be conducted in. They were chosen from offers made by local authorities in terms of which could come forward with the scheme at this point in time. But let me give reassurance to the Member, all authorities across Wales, by the end of this term of Government, will have full coverage of our childcare pledge in Wales.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks for that, and I look forward to that happening. Just moving on to an issue that we talked about last week, in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower disaster, now I know you made a statement on this to the Chamber, so we have discussed these issues—. One thing that has arisen as a possible problem in tackling regulation in Wales is the split of responsibilities between yourself and your colleague Lesley Griffiths, in that Lesley Griffiths’s responsibilities, I believe, cover the building regulations side, whereas you’re in charge of fire and rescue services and community fire safety. So, I just wondered what your thoughts were on that and how you would tackle the difficulty of that split.

Carl Sargeant AC: Let me give reassurance to the Member again: there is no difficulty in terms of responsibility within the Welsh Government on this. I am the lead Minister on this, including the building regulations side, and the fire risk to any properties in Wales. I have had several meetings with the UK Government, and my Scottish and English counterparts, on this. This is a very live issue, which we are taking very seriously. I work very closely with Lesley Griffiths’s department, but I am the lead Minister.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch. It’s been three months since the announcement of the 1,600-capacity men’s prison in Port Talbot. And I just wanted to probe further on your response from last time I raised this. I didn’t believe that you were clear and forthright enough when you made a statement to the Assembly on 22 March regarding the level of engagement that you had had with the Ministry of Justice. The prisons Minister has confirmed, in a letter dated 31 May to me, that your department proactively helped the MOJ to identify sites, and that’s a little bit more than ‘had discussions’, which was all that you said at the time. On 22 March, you also said, and I quote,‘there are many questions that remain unanswered by the MOJ.’Since it has been confirmed by the prisons Minister that you were engaged in the process before the news became public, why don’t you have more answers regarding the MOJ’s intentions?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think the Member’s being rather overzealous in her questioning to me. I was very clear to her: I had one discussion with the prisons Minister prior to his announcement, which was on the day. Indeed, my team, and a team of other officials from another department, were engaged with the prisons Minister’s department in terms of deciding and offering sites that were available right across the south Wales region, which I know the Member is clear on also.

Bethan Sayed AC: Can I just ask then, why did you just have one conversation? If you had offered those sites, surely it would have been good for you, as a Cabinet Secretary, to be proactive in actually taking on some of the concerns that you would have prior to that public announcement. I’ve seen a list of quite a number of sites, which has clearly been given by your department. Were questions raised, such as, was this category C prison needed? The Wales Governance Centre has proven in research that such a size of a prison is not necessary for Wales. There’s no women’s prison, so why not have conversations with the MOJ with regard to expansion in that regard?Can I just get an idea as to what ongoing conversations you’re having, to satisfy the people of Port Talbot that you are making every effort to make them aware of releasing the land, where that location will be—hopefully, it won’t be happening, but where the location you have identified would be—and how they will be kept informed of the process ongoing, via yourself, not just the UK Government?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think what the Member is trying to relate to is the fact that, trying to develop an argument that this is our project. It isn’t our project. And it’s the same exactly with any other business investment that comes to Wales, whether that’s private or public sector. An engagement process takes place on land availability, and that is an action that takes place on a daily, weekly basis here.I recognise the point the Member makes, in terms of, once the decision has been made by the UK Government, our engagement process has to start there, about the ability for what we think is appropriate for Wales. I have started that discussion currently, but it wouldn’t be fair to say that the decision of making a prison site here in Wales was a Welsh Government one. This is an application coming from the UK Government.

Bethan Sayed AC: But it would have been within your gift to have allocated that land for something else, prior to now having a prison. So, that’s something that we’ll argue about again, in the future.I want to have one question about fire safety. Although you said last week that there were no buildings with the particular type of cladding used in Grenfell Tower, the BBC reported yesterday that tower blocks were being tested for similar aluminium composite material, ACM, cladding, such as in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board. I’d like you to clarify a number of things, if you could, because statements from the Welsh Government have been less clear than they should have been in recent days. For example, you’ve initially suggested the testing was voluntary. You said last week that you would urge local authorities who want to test cladding to do so. Do you think a stronger statement from the get-go would have been better? There hasn’t been much clarification since. The Welsh Government has said that it is telling local authorities who suspect use of ACM in tower blocks that they need to test their buildings. But a Welsh Government spokesperson also added that the Welsh Government does not have the powers to compel any local authority to test their buildings, but added that it was encouraging them to do so. I’m seeing a variety of words—‘need’, ‘encourage’, ‘compel’. Can I get some clarity on what is actually being done, and what you have the power to actually do, so that we can satisfy our minds that, with regard to Welsh buildings, we’re doing all we can?

Carl Sargeant AC: Okay. Let’s take the two points that the Member raises. First of all, the Member’s incorrect in her assertion that I had an option in terms of the land issue regarding the prison. The Member said that we would discuss this at a further date, and I am more than happy to do that. The second point, and a very important one with regard to fire safety, is that my understanding, through advice, is that I don’t have the powers to compel authorities or RSLs to conduct tests, because they are an entity in and of themselves. But what I have done is had contact with all of these. I don’t believe it is in any of the interests of the RSLs or local authorities not to test where they see or perceive risk. And that hasn’t come back to me in terms of where they wouldn’t do that. And that discussion continues.The advice I received last week—and it stands today—is that the ACM product that was used in the Grenfell fire disaster is not in place in any of our buildings here in Wales, but there are ACM panels, which I have also instructed authorities to have tested on the basis of fire integrity. I’m seeking advice from my senior fire adviser and a panel of individuals who can give us professional advice on the integrity of buildings. But I think we are learning more each day, and I had a long conversation with the UK administration yesterday about ACM products, about insulation, and about the integrity of whole units. And that’s what we’ve got to consider here: making sure that the first and foremost position for myself, as Minister with responsibility, is the safety of residents in these premises.

Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. In the summer edition of the Bevan Foundation’s ‘Exchange’ newsletter, the director of the Bevan Foundation, in an article entitled, ‘Learning to Love Local’ says that the January 2017 White Paper, ‘Reforming Local Government: Resilient and Renewed’, once again focuses on collaboration, and she then says that, essentially, the public is being asked to agree to major changes in how local services are delivered without knowing how they can make their views heard, which clearly falls more into your portfolio. The Building Communities Trust is working with the Talwrn network of Welsh third sector organisations and the community branch of the union Unite, identifying the key factors in developing the community resilience at local level that would deal with the issue raised by the Bevan Foundation, and state that they’ve already engaged with Ministers and civil servants in the Welsh Government on these issues, which include looking at the Rhondda Cynon Taf public services model, working with the third sector to develop a local community well-being approach, using asset-based community development—that’s people’s strengths. And they go on to say that independent community organisations are well-placed to effectively deliver local services, from social care to family support and employability, and hosting these provisions by others. I wonder if you could tell us what discussions you’ve therefore had with this organisation and their partners, and what actions, if any, might result from that.

Carl Sargeant AC: I haven’t had a conversation with those particular organisations, but I will check to see whether my team have. In terms of the first point on local government reorganisation, I think what’s important is that there will be a consultation process, which Mark Drakeford will lead on, not myself, but I do have conversations with Mark about community resilience and what that looks like. I think the Member is right in terms of the fact that local need and local influence have to have a purpose in developing policy and the delivery of services. We are working in a very different financial environment as we stand, and therefore, I would encourage third sector organisations, or local organisations, to get engaged with the PSBs, and a good example the Member raised was the RCT one, the Rhondda Cynon Taf PSB. It’s something that I’m engaged with very closely, in terms of delivering a children’s zone within that particular area. And they’re taking that as part of their well-being assessment.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. I think the key message from that project was the need for independent third sector organisations to be involved in design and delivery with the statutory sector— adopting models that weren’t introduced originally in the situation of budget constraint or austerity or whatever you want to call it; they were introduced because they made life better. One of the organisations, as an example, that’s working in communities with young people to unlock those assets, those strengths, is ScoutsCymru. They carried out a number of independent evaluations and independent assessments in 2011, and found that 89 per cent identified that Scouting had helped them build key skills, including social, team working and leadership. A more recent report on the employability of young people in Scouting has found that this had helped them develop the skills that they need in work and helped their future employability. This year, Edinburgh University released the results of a study into mental well-being, finding a positive impact on those who participated in Scouting or Guiding throughout their lives. Concerns have been raised by ScoutsCymru regarding Flintshire—and I’m not picking on Flintshire, but it’s just that they tell me that it’s thus far the only county that’s done this—regarding the removal of discretionary rate relief from Scout groups and the impact that that’s going to have, particularly on young people from poorer backgrounds. They’ve also been refused access to the hardship fund, where they say that the work that they’re doing is actually providing assets to the community and helping the local authority do more with the resource available. While you may not want to be specific about Flintshire, what actions can you take to engage with local authorities to recognise that projects such as this are actually part of doing things better and not an easily disposable cost?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and I think there are a couple of points there with regard to the independence of organisations. I and the Member meet many independent organisations that do a great job on a day-to-day basis in all of our communities, but we just can’t fund them all. But access to projects and access to influence is something that I would share with the Member in terms of developing well-being strategies for local authorities. It’s a good idea and the Member alludes to ScoutsCymru and the Girl Guides, which all have a positive effect in general on the mental well-being of young people and their health. I support that.With regard to the very specific question, Flintshire aside, I am familiar with the issue that the Member raises and I think that for one of the Scout groups involved in that, the actual cost—and while I recognise that the Member is raising a general principle of investment—the actual cost to the Scout group is £1 per week in terms of the increase in their rateable value or the rate cost. I think it’s around that number. Notwithstanding that, I do recognise that the value of Scouts and other organisations have to be considered in terms of a very challenged financial settlement for local authorities. But I do, and I think they do also, value the contribution that they make to our communities.

Mark Isherwood AC: Finally then, in the context of helping local authorities and other public sector bodies understand how this can improve lives, it’s about early intervention and prevention and saving money for the statutory services that they provide, so it’s actually a part of that agenda. You might be aware, and if not, hopefully you will be now, that in Flintshire, as has happened elsewhere in Wales, there’s going to be a third sector conference on 7 September, ‘Co-production in Practice’, looking at the principles of co-production, early intervention, adverse childhood experiences, strengthening the power of the third sector and building resilient communities. You may be already aware of it—I asked that you be invited—but, if not, and your diary is free, will you consider attending?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, I am aware of that event and I will give that some further consideration. As the Member will appreciate, my diary does get rather busy at times, but if I can come along, I will do so. I’m absolutely in the same space as the Member in terms of early intervention and prevention, but we’ve got to work on this together because if you come to us, saying, ‘Look, the waiting times in some of our hospitals are increasing and there is pressure there’, then my colleagues will have to react to that because of the political will around that. But, actually, if we have a clever investment upfront in our young people, and that’s what, as a children’s Minister, I’m trying to do on a daily basis, we can actually prevent some of the A&E pressure and the longer term illnesses, but we’ve got to work together; we can’t be critical at both ends. This is a transition of support for families and individuals, and I hope that the Member can get on board and support us with that.

<p>Community Cohesion</p>

Bethan Sayed AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what the Welsh Government is doing to improve community cohesion in Wales in light of recent terror related incidents? OAQ(5)0162(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. Our regional community cohesion co-ordinators and my community safety officials are working hard with our partners to provide reassurance. This includes monitoring and responding quickly to community tensions. In the longer term, we are working to foster cohesion, tolerance and respect, and to support communities to prevent hostility and extremism.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you. I asked you questions on this a few weeks ago and that was before the terror attack on Muslims at Finsbury Park mosque by a British man living in Cardiff. It shows that we need to take a different approach to looking at addressing these issues. It’s not just about expecting ethnic-minority communities to look inside their own practices and how they operate; it’s about how we can all play a part in activating community cohesion. So, I’m trying to understand, since that attack, what have you been doing to try and make sure that we work progressively together here in Wales, that we don’t have people from Wales carrying out these attacks, and identifying, where they are taking part in online discussions of this nature, that we can get to grips with this particular issue?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and I regret heavily the fact that this person came from Cardiff and committed this tragic attack. Can I say that this isn’t a switch-on moment for us in Wales? We’ve been doing lots of work with our communities, and that one person was one of 3 million people that live in Wales. I’ve met with the senior police team, and I met with the faith forum this week as well, trying to understand how we need to shift resources in terms of making a more tolerant, cohesive society. We perhaps have concentrated very much on very specific groups of people when, actually, we perhaps need to broaden that out, about acceptability, and that’s something I’m looking for further advice on from that team of people.

Darren Millar AC: Cabinet Secretary, I know there’s a great deal of engagement that goes on with faith communities in Wales and the Welsh Government, and that’s work that I know is greatly valued by faith communities, but I think it is important that representative bodies, whether they be Christian or Muslim, in that faith communities forum represent the plethora of voices on behalf of their communities, because we all know that there are differences of opinions, different denominations et cetera, and I’m not confident that, actually, those are always represented around that table. I wonder what work you are doing to ensure that they are inclusive of the faiths that they represent.

Carl Sargeant AC: We have regular conversations, actually. The faith forum, which is chaired by the First Minister, often has discussions with representatives of the sector and who they are representing. In fact, I remember a discussion from the last meeting about a group that felt their voices weren’t as strong as they could be, and how we were going to address that, and what I’d like to do is make sure that the people who are represented around the table can actually embed the voice of the many around there. If there is a very specific group of people that you’re concerned about, please drop me a line.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, the answer to Bethan Jenkins, I think, has highlighted the issues about how this radicalism can arise in any sector; it’s not just particular sectors. So, do you agree with me that, actually, we need to undertake a measure to prevent radicalisation of young people from the hard right, which creates such extremist views, and what are you doing about that?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and, as I said to Bethan Jenkins, this isn’t about one particular group of people. Actually, many of the referrals that come through the Prevent programme in Wales relate to far-right extremism as well, and that’s something I know the police are very keen to make sure they tackle, and front-line staff are given training to look at this in the public sector.The new Welsh baccalaureate for schools and colleges includes an option that helps support teachers and tutors, also, in facilitating safe and constructive discussions amongst learners on topics around extremism and community cohesion, and I think this is a job about starting very early, to ensure that our young people are tolerant as they grow up. They are the future, and if we can embed that as a natural instinct—to be tolerant—then I think that’s the way we need to go: to invest in our young people.

<p>Communities First</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary held regarding the funding of community groups in light of the decision to bring Communities First to an end? OAQ(5)0171(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you for the question. A wide-ranging engagement exercise was held with individuals, organisations and community groups across Wales on the Government’s new approach to resilient communities. It’s now for the lead bodies to engage with third sector delivery partners and local communities on their transition arrangements in line with our guidance.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Minister for that reply. Turning from the general to the specific, I know that the forum in Penparcau are looking forward to welcoming the Minister, visiting in September I think, and if he looks around the new building outside, he’ll see—. First of all, he’ll see the place where I live, but then, more importantly, he’ll see the place where people have lived in Penparcau for at least 3,000 years, which is Pen Dinas hillfort, which is one of the most significant hillforts in mid Wales, and an underutilised tourist attraction for Aberystwyth and the whole area, it has to be said. The forum there are very interested in developing ideas in which they become part of the custodians of that hillfort, in that it brings the community together, it raises community pride, it tells the story of the community that’s there, it involves young people, it involves a potential of outdoor benefits, and, of course, it could become a way of attracting tourists and visitors to the area. So, in terms of heritage and this particular undervalued and underused aspect, perhaps, of community cohesion, what discussions can he have with Ken Skates in advance of his visit in September about how we can bring the community together in Penparcau and work together with the statutory bodies and the local community to make the very best of one of the greatest natural assets we have?

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed, and I am very familiar with that area. It wouldn’t be my first visit to Penparcau, indeed. I would ask the Member also to have a conversation with Hannah Blythyn, who is also very keen on developing structures. Flint castle is in a Communities First area in north Wales—again, people engaging in that sector of community, and embedding respect and opportunities in those fields. I will talk to Ken Skates, of course, prior to my visit, on the basis that you’ve told me that’s what the discussions may lead to. [Laughter.] I am encouraged by the Member’s positivity, but, more importantly, I’m encouraged by the residents and members of Penparcau, because they’ve seen an opportunity, post Communities First, to develop an opportunity for the future.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, six years after you chose not to be advised by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action report, ‘Communities First—A Way Forward’, which said the missing ingredient was community ownership, and after £0.5 billion having gone into the programme, you told the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee last week that the programme would not be replaced, that the record of its work in Wales’s most deprived areas had been mixed, and that the figures aren’t moving. You’ve now said that joined-up Government would ensure that all spending decisions would have tackling poverty in mind, which, of course, is what you and your predecessors have consistently said. But how are you engaging with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and its partners on this agenda to ensure that that missing ingredient doesn’t remain missing as we move forward?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I’m extremely proud of the Communities First programme that took place across our communities. The staff and volunteers across those programmes should be congratulated on what they did. They’ve stopped our communities getting poorer, from what I believe, and making sure that there is an opportunity to move on with the legacy funding that I announced earlier this year. It is now for the partnerships locally to determine what their well-being assessments are for those communities, and we’re working very closely with them to ensure that we have the best available opportunities. Ken Skates and I—Ken is the lead Minister on tackling poverty—believe fundamentally that the route out of poverty is quality jobs and skills, and that’s what we will be pursuing, with vigour, across all our communities across Wales.

<p>Tackling Inequality</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government utilising the assets in our localities to tackle inequality? OAQ(5)0165(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Our regeneration and infrastructure projects focus on tackling inequality. The community facilities programme, for example, provides capital grants for community-led projects.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, building on the theme of the last few questions, the routes out of poverty you identify I completely share, but unless you get to the root causes of the problems that people face, often the routes out of poverty won’t be accessed. Last week, your colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government told the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that the job of local authorities is to identify and capture the strengths and assets of people in that area. We’ve heard of co-production principles, but they’re about things that you say you support—equality, mutuality, working alongside the people, doing things with them rather than to them and for them so that they move from being passive recipients to active participants. What meetings or discussions have you therefore had—now 13 months after its launch—with the co-production network for Wales so that you can engage, share and learn together on the methodologies, which are working in communities in Wales, UK and across the world, and have been doing for decades, and can significantly help deliver the solutions that we all seek?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I think the Member has several groups of individuals that he represents well, on the basis that they must come and see him on a weekly basis. But what I can say is that we introduced legislation here, which was the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which embeds the principles of working together on exactly the issues that the Member raises today about co-production and opportunity. All of the well-being assessments are being created across the public bodies, and I would expect all of those to have respect for organisations that work across the length and breadth of Wales to deliver a better outcome for those communities.

<p>Vibrant and Viable Places</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work of the Vibrant and Viable Places strategy? OAQ(5)0160(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you for the question. The Vibrant and Viable Places capital regeneration programme has been successful in providing support and investment across many communities across Wales. I will be announcing further details regarding a new capital regeneration programme shortly.

Vikki Howells AC: In my constituency, the town-centre partnership fund element of VVP was used to support important town-centre initiatives like the colourfully named Yabba Dabba Dare and Faberdare, which played an important role in bringing people into Aberdare town centre. Whilst acknowledging that the programme was always crafted as a finite scheme, what support can the Welsh Government offer to similar community-driven events in the future to enable them to attract people into our towns and villages?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, the opportunities that the VVP programme has given have transformed some areas across Wales, and I will be giving that further consideration. My team didn’t believe that I would dare to say ‘Yabba Dabba Dare’ today in the Chamber, but I have, and I congratulate them again on the work that they have done in your community, making a real difference. The programme I intend to launch in the next couple of months will give more details about how opportunities like this can be taken forward not only in your Cynon Valley seat, but also in areas across Wales.

David Melding AC: I’m delighted to also commend the regeneration of Aberdare town centre. [Interruption.] I like being generous. It really is one of the best examples I’ve ever seen of use of this sort of money, and it does remind people of ‘the Queen of the Valleys’, as I think Aberdare used to be called. I want to talk about housing renewal. Will you assure us that this will still be a central focus? The use of area-based housing-led regeneration programmes is really important, especially when it uses as many local businesses and employees living locally as possible, too.

Carl Sargeant AC: I think David Melding was going to say ‘yabba dabba doo’ there at one point, if I was right. This is going to be great in translation, I would suggest. [Laughter.] But can I share with the Member that I think it was important that the VPP scheme did have a focus on housing regeneration alongside the general regeneration of a particular area. It still is a priority for this Government. We’ve got 20,000 homes to build, and I would see that VPP plays a part in that too.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It’s been exciting to see the difference that Vibrant and Viable Places funding has made to the town of Holyhead, where a number of projects have taken place or are in the pipeline. But, of course, the economic problems aren’t limited to those areas that have been identified for investment through this funding to date. So, what assurance can the Minister give that other areas will be able to take advantage of such opportunities in the near future? I include rural areas, which suffer the same social and economic problems, and, specifically in my constituency, Amlwch, which has suffered social and economic pressure for many generations now. When will we have the same opportunities as those that have been enjoyed in Holyhead?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, the Member is right to raise the issue that there are many areas across Wales that need regeneration input in terms of some finance. But what I’m cautious not to do is spread the jam too thinly so that everybody gets a little bit but actually it doesn’t make as big an impact as it should do. I want that to be determined locally, so local authorities have those decisions. Of course, the bids, when they come in, if it’s a rural scheme that wishes to be the priority of the local authority, then so be it, but I’m making sure that we have the biggest impact for the financial investment that we make.

<p>Communities First</p>

Suzy Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, I don’t know whether you’ve heard of an organisation called Faith in Families. They’re a local Swansea-based organisation—

You need to ask the question on the order paper.

Suzy Davies AC: I’m very sorry.

Suzy Davies AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide details of the transitional arrangements for Communities First? OAQ(5)0156(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Lead delivery bodies have developed detailed transition plans.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much. I’ll go back to Faith in Families. It’s an organisation based in Swansea that concentrates on early intervention with families that are vulnerable. Thanks to Communities First, actually, they’ve been able to redevelop three of their family centres. Since the announcement that Communities First is going, they’re in very uncertain circumstances, shall I say, because they’re not aware of the announcement that you made recently regarding the transitional period between Communities First and whatever’s following. As this is one example, I’m wondering if you’re able to say how far the message has got with those who’ve already received Communities First funding in the past about your current proposals. I’m just thinking that if it’s happening to Faith in Families, it may be happening to other organisations.

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, I’m very surprised by the Member’s question in detail, because Faith in Families have been running a media campaign since October announcing—warning—that they’ll have to make staff redundancies and close the new community hub in St Teilo’s once their Communities First funding ends. So, I’m really surprised that they’re telling you that they don’t know about transition funding, because they’re on the money in terms of making sure that I’m aware, and other social media outlets are too. I am aware of Swansea’s local delivery board detailed transition plans, and Faith in Families, I understand, will receive funding—full funding—until March of 2018.

<p>Supporting Fathers </p>

Neil McEvoy AC: 8. How successful has the £122 million invested in Flying Start and Families First been in supporting fathers, especially separated fathers, to fulfil their parenting role? OAQ(5)0167(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Flying Start and Families First work with the whole family, taking an individualised, tailored, and flexible approach to engage and support both fathers and mothers. Many services also provide dedicated support specifically adapted to the particular needs of fathers, including non-resident fathers.

Neil McEvoy AC: Okay, thanks. I think the honest answer, really, should have been that you don’t actually know, because no data are collected. So, just to prove the point now, in front of everybody in this Senedd, can you give us a figure—a figure—on how many fathers are engaged?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think it’s regrettable, Presiding Officer, that the Member suggests that my answer was dishonest in respect of that. I would suggest that the Member—. I refer the Member to my first response. Supporting both fathers and mothers to adopt positive parenting behaviour is an integral part of Flying Start and Families First, and I’m extremely proud of the work that they do across all the families across Wales.

Neil McEvoy AC: So, the answer is: you don’t know.

Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. The 2016 UK annual fatherhood survey found that 25 per cent of dads said there wasn’t enough support to help them play a positive role in family life. In Wales, the Welsh dads survey, which has only just been published, found that although most fathers and father figures do not have problems with their care giving, two thirds still felt their role wasn’t valued equally with the other parent by authorities and society, and nearly 80 per cent think the Government, i.e. Welsh Government, should do more to help fathers. How do you respond to that, where the concerns primarily relate to the way systems seem to work in public sector bodies, rather than the intent of the people delivering those systems?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, and I’m grateful for the Member’s question in terms of how we are able to take this forward. As I said earlier, both organisations, and other organisations, support both parents, families—mothers and fathers of a family unit. I’m not sighted on the detail that the Member may wish to raise with me, particularly in terms of detail on where he seems to feel that there is some lacking support. I’d be happy to have a conversation with the Member, either by letter or otherwise with my officials.

Michelle Brown AC: Cabinet Secretary, have you considered how staff at Flying Start and Families First can identify possible parental alienation in children, and have you investigated ways they can help foster healthy family relationships in cases of parental alienation?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, of course, and I think the Member is right to raise this issue. Look, we absolutely get that parental alienation is a factor in the determination of the success of a young person or a family unit, and we recognise that happens on both sides, of mothers and of fathers as well. I am confident that the Families First and Flying Start organisations have the capacity to recognise this and deal with this appropriately. What I would say is that this is a very complex piece of delivery in terms of social intervention with individuals who are in crisis. But I am confident that my teams, including Children and Family Court Advisory Support Service Cymru, have the ability to deal with this successfully.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Topical Questions

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item is the topical questions—Adam Price.

<p>The Tesco Customer Engagement Centre in Cardiff</p>

Adam Price AC: What actions is the Welsh Government taking in response to the proposed plans to close the Tesco Customer Engagement Centre in Cardiff? TAQ(5)0191(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Further to discussions and meetings with Tesco and with USDAW, I’m meeting with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum today to explore employment opportunities at other regulated customer service centres in the region. We are also establishing a taskforce to secure the best possible outcome for staff.

Adam Price AC: Speaking earlier today at the Welsh Retail Consortium event at the Senedd, Cabinet Secretary, you discussed the importance of effective dialogue between Welsh Government and the retail sector. In that context, how surprised—indeed, how angry—were you that Tesco, Wales’s biggest private sector employer, gave you no advance warning whatsoever, as I understand it, about these substantial job losses? What’s the Welsh Government’s position on how their loyal workforce was treated? I have an e-mail in my possession sent by a member of the Tesco senior management staff in September of last year, clearly implying to its workforce that there was no risk to their jobs, despite concerns that were circulating at the time while the building lease was in place until 2020. Now, it’s clear, on that basis, Tesco mislead these workers. Many of them will have made important decisions on their future based on this information. Now, is that behaviour acceptable, in the Welsh Government’s view, from a reputable employer? If it’s not, shouldn’t he be naming and shaming Tesco? Finally, he’s referred, in some of his comments he made immediately following the announcement, to he was going to try and seek an urgent meeting with Tesco to persuade them to think again. Can he say a little more on how those discussions are proceeding? Has the Welsh Government put a counter-proposal to Tesco on the table in partnership with unions and local authorities?

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for the points he raises and the questions as well. I was deeply, deeply disappointed, not just by the decision, but by the way that Welsh Government, and, indeed, many, many workers, came to learn about the proposed closure of the facility. It’s quite apparent now that many employees learned about the decision on social media, which is an entirely unacceptable and not responsible action from any employer. It appears, given today’s news, that Tesco is embarking on a massive cost-cutting exercise with an attempt in mind to cost-cut something in the region of £1.5 billion off their bottom line. There’s been a further announcement today of 1,200 jobs going at their headquarters. I think this demonstrates that Tesco is pursuing a cost-cutting agenda that places profit, sadly, ahead of the workforce. We’ve had discussions with the company. A meeting took place on Monday. I spoke with the CEO just last week expressing my disappointment, my deep disappointment, at the way that the decision has been reached. I was told again that there was nothing that Welsh Government could have offered or could do to stop what is a purely commercial decision, but I did impress upon the company the need to work with all partners to identify as many opportunities for those affected by the decision to move on to secure and well-paid employment in the sector.Now, a number of actions are being taken forward as a consequence of the discussions that took place with Tesco just this week. We are calling on Tesco to ensure that any outsourcing of work that takes place considers Wales as an option for employment and for operations. We’re working with a number of interested parties who are looking at potentially using the building as an investment opportunity and an employment opportunity. We’re working with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, identifying companies that could recruit, and, indeed working with those who have expressed an interest in recruiting. We know that there are at least five significant companies who are looking at taking on those employees who were affected by the decision.I’m also determined to ensure that the taskforce brings together a number of agencies, including, of course, the contact centre forum, but also Careers Wales and Business Wales and other bodies who are able to assist people in identifying alternative work. It’s worth saying that in spite of what Tesco have decided to do—and they have laid out the reasons why they took the decisions—in spite of that decision, the sector remains in a buoyant position here in Wales. We have many, many immensely skilled people working in the sector. A huge proportion, of course, are employed by Tesco and will be affected by this deeply regrettable decision, but we remain of the view that a significant number will be able to access work opportunities immediately, not just within Tesco, where they could be redeployed, but in those other companies that are looking to recruit very, very soon. We will be working with individuals through the ReAct programme, with businesses, again through the ReAct programme, through the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, and with a number of anchor and regionally important companies, to identify as many job opportunities as possible in what is a buoyant sector.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I couldn’t agree more with some of the sentiments that you’ve expressed today, Cabinet Secretary. These are hugely troubling times for the 1,100 employees at this facility in Cardiff, which has a very good record over 27 years of establishment in the capital city of Wales. The dedication and professionalism of the employees deserve better treatment than they received last week, I have to say. It is regrettable that many of those employees only heard the news through social media and third parties, shall we say.It is a fact, though, Cabinet Secretary, that these are proposed job losses at the moment. Regrettably, very often they turn into reality, though, at the end of the process. You’ve had a week with your officials to digest the announcement, to liaise with the chief executive and other contacts at the company. In your assessment, is there any hope that some of these jobs might be salvaged within the Tesco family? If that is a possibility, is there any estimation as to the likely number of jobs that might be made available to some of the employees on the site?Secondly, the importance, obviously, of the package that the Government will put in place cannot be underestimated in a jobs announcement that is the biggest single loss of jobs in 10 years in Wales, and that will put forward huge logistical challenges to the support package you might put in place. Are you confident, on the assessment that you have made, that the package will meet the needs of the employees to find alternative employment and, ultimately, secure the employment that pays the mortgage, puts the food on the table, and puts the shirts on the backs of the kids back at home? Because those are the questions that employees will want to know.If I may also just press you: given that Tesco is such a key strategic partner in the Welsh economy—19,000 employees across Wales, the biggest single private employer in Wales—it cannot be acceptable that you were blindsided by this announcement. I cannot believe that you do not sit, or your officials do not sit, in forums or meetings where opportunities are discussed, where hurdles are discussed, and what you can do to facilitate overcoming those hurdles. What type of relationship do you actually have with these big employers to make sure that there is genuine trust on both sides of the table when you are discussing putting facilities in place that assist employers to strengthen their position here in Wales, safeguard their position in Wales, and, ultimately, just have a bit of honesty?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions and also for agreeing with my sentiments concerning Tesco’s decision? I’ll deal with that final point first, if I may. It wasn’t just the Welsh Government that was not informed in good time about the decision. The UK Government—I think that the Secretary of State is on record as saying that they were not given advance notice either. I think everybody has been critical of the way that Tesco allowed loyal skilled employees to learn first on social media about their fate. The Scottish Government were not given advance notice. There were no discussions with the Scottish Government, and I’m not aware of any discussions that took place with the regional authorities in England concerning today’s announcement either.Tesco have decided to make these announcements without consulting with any level of government whatsoever. Indeed, our engagement comes primarily through the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, which acts as, as it says, a forum for contact centre businesses. Unfortunately, it appears that engagement by Tesco with the forum itself did not lead to any advance notice of this decision being made. Again, that is deeply regrettable, and I have expressed this to the company—I’ve said it publicly.It’s important that sector organisations, such as the contact centre forum, are given the trust by those employers who rely on those bodies for advice, for opportunities, and for sharing best practice and sector intelligence. I would invite Tesco, as a major employer in the Welsh economy, to engage more thoroughly with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, and with retail sector bodies as well, to ensure that, as we move forward, as many job opportunities can be saved, and, indeed, as many of those who may be affected by the decision, if the job losses are indeed implemented, can find alternative work—. The Member asks a very important question about how many jobs could be salvaged within the Tesco group. This is something that I’ve asked the company in various discussions and meetings. It is likely, we are told, that a number of jobs can be salvaged within the wider Tesco group within this region. Pinning the company down to an exact figure at the moment is not possible, because the company itself is not able to gauge how many opportunities there are across the region. However, it’s clear that it won’t be anywhere near the 1,000 plus jobs that they propose to lose, and for that reason it’s important that we look at bringing forward a number of pipeline projects—inward investment projects—that could be used to absorb a significant number of the job losses that could follow the 45-day consultation.I’m also working closely with the trade unions and with local Members as well to make sure that there is a co-ordinated response to this across the political spectrum and with our social partners. I’ve spoken with USDAW on numerous occasions, I’ve spoken with the local Members of Parliament who have raised this matter in the Commons and I’ve also spoken with Assembly Members. I think it’s absolutely imperative now that Tesco continue to work with the Wales Contact Centre Forum and, of course, with Welsh Government, and, indeed, with the council here in Cardiff, to identify as many opportunities as possible for the people that have been loyal to them for many years. This is an award-winning facility and the loyal workers who have been employed there deserve every opportunity to get back into employment if they miss out on work after the 45-day consultation period.

Gareth Bennett AC: It does seem rather curious that, with job losses on this scale, Tesco didn’t give any prior warning to any relevant organisations, such as yourself or the Wales Contact Centre Forum. There is also the issue—well, you mentioned it yourself, actually—regarding information given to the actual employees, because I’ve also been told that the staff that weren’t on shift at the time the job losses were announced weren’t contacted by Tesco, but they did find out either through fellow workers or, unfortunately, through social media, as you pointed out yourself. So, it wasn’t very good practice from Tesco and they do seem to have acted in a rather cavalier fashion altogether with these job losses. So, that is unfortunate, and what can be salvaged from this we don’t know. But I welcome your efforts in trying to alleviate the job losses as far as can possibly be done. Hopefully, people can be redeployed as far as possible, although you now say that it won’t be anywhere near the total number of job losses. There is a structure in Cardiff in particular with call centres. This has been a growth area in recent years, as you’ve identified. So, hopefully, people can be integrated in the existing call centre network. Of course, conditions do vary across this sector. Tesco, in fact, I believe, was one of the better operations as far as the employees were concerned. So, it’s all the more unfortunate that they’ve now treated the employees rather badly over this. Of course, if people aren’t going to stay within Tesco, they will be wondering about redundancy packages. But there is probably little that you can say about that. As far as I’m aware, the unions are currently negotiating. I don’t know if there’s anything else you can add to what you’ve said. But thanks for your contribution.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions and also agree with his concerns about the way that this announcement was made? It does appear as though news had leaked, and that that news might otherwise have been part of today’s announcement by Tesco of a major restructuring effort in an attempt to cut £1.5 billion from the bottom line as it seeks to become more competitive and achieve higher levels of profits. I think there’s no doubt that demand for skilled people in this sector in this region is still great, and for that reason I am confident that a very significant number of people will be able to secure alternative employment, if those jobs are lost after the 45-day consultation period. The trade union, USDAW, I know, is already very, very active in engaging with employees and with the company, and USDAW are doing a sterling job indeed with consulting and engaging with Government and with Members of Parliament as well.

Hefin David AC: I’ve estimated, Cabinet Secretary, that there’ll be approximately 100 jobs in Caerphilly affected by this. Last night, I attended a long-arranged consultation meeting with major retailers, which included Morrisons, Asda, Boots and Specsavers, and Tesco were down to attend and they weren’t there. They were notable by their absence, and they were missing again today, as far as I could see, from the Welsh Retail Consortium meeting that Adam Price has referred to. This is simply not good enough, because the appearance is that they’re running scared and that they’re afraid to speak to Assembly Members. I would have sought them out to speak about this. I heard it too from USDAW. It demonstrates the importance of having a strong trade union, and I commend the work that USDAW have done. It appears also that Julie Morgan AM and Anna McMorrin MP have had to force the door down to get to Tesco to talk to workers and to talk to officers at Tesco as well. It’s simply not good enough. So, when you speak to Tesco management, please could you ensure that you impress upon them the importance of talking to elected representatives? Because we heard directly from their workforce. I’ve got stories from their workforce that demonstrate this isn’t good enough. And indeed, I’d add that representatives of other retailers that I’ve spoken to have said this is a textbook example of how not to do employment relations; it’s absolutely appalling.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Hefin for the points that he raises? I agree entirely with him; I am concerned that Tesco’s engagement with public servants needs to be improved, and so too Tesco’s engagement and communications with its own employees—the people that generate those profits that they are seeking to increase—need to improve as well. Anna McMorrin and Jo Stevens have fought very hard for those people who face losing their jobs, and I know that they will continue to do so. It’s worth my informing Members today as well that I have asked for work to be conducted concerning skills and emerging trends within this sector, so that we can ensure that the contact centre sector in Wales is at the forefront of emerging digital technologies, and takes every opportunity to upskill the workforce as far as possible.

Neil McEvoy AC: I think like everyone in the Chamber, I feel very, very bad for the employees who are about to lose their jobs. I know some of them, in fact, that work up there. It’s not new for us to lose jobs in this way through big corporations not really valuing their workforce. The solution really lies in creating new jobs, so would you consider setting an entrepreneurial fund so that people who will be losing their jobs at Tesco could maybe have the opportunity to set up a new business?

Ken Skates AC: I think the Member raises a very important point about the need to ensure that people who face redundancy are given the right support to get back into work or, indeed, to start their own company. ReAct 3 will provide financial support to people who are affected, and also financial support to potential employers of those people who may be affected. But there are also Welsh Government-supported initiatives concerning shared space, incubation hubs and so forth, that also offer bursaries to people who wish to be innovative and entrepreneurial, not just when they start out on their careers—often young people—but also people who have been made redundant but have an idea for a business and need a number of things: one, financial support; two, support from peers; and three, opportunities to break into a certain field. So, that’s in part why the Welsh Government through its programme for government is keen to roll out more shared space and incubation hubs for entrepreneurs.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think that we should be left in little doubt that the supermarket sector is really a dog-eat-dog, cut-throat-competition business, and I’m afraid, like any unfettered market, it eventually leads to monopoly. I suppose I don’t want to live in some sort of dystopian future where we all have to buy our food from one supermarket. So, there are some concerns here about the way in which the supermarket industry dominates the UK food market and what we can do to regulate it so that they behave a bit better than Tesco has behaved in this case. What Julie Morgan and Hefin David and I want—and others who have constituents who are affected by this—is to have some sort of clear strategy for the future to ensure that they aren’t being pushed into other jobs that are then going to be eliminated in turn. It seems to me that automation is one of the issues that makes it very challenging for people in the service sector, where people are going to have to be prepared to retrain and change in line with new technologies. So, I wondered if you could say a little bit more on how your thoughts on developing your new economic strategy could be influenced by what has happened in the case of Tesco.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for the points that she raises and for her question? I think no matter how competitive a market is, employees shouldn’t be treated with anything other than upmost respect and loyalty by their employers. Of course, shoppers play an important role in influencing corporate behaviour and I’m sure that many shoppers will be somewhat disappointed by the way that those employees have been treated by a company that they may have been loyal to as customers. I think the issue of automation is really, really significant given that we know that advances in technology are accelerating and we need to be in a position to adapt to what will soon become a new reality and also take advantage of new technologies. That is why I just mentioned that I have commissioned a piece of work that will look at existing studies that have been carried out, particularly by the Wales Contact Centre Forum, but that goes beyond that in looking at how technology and automation could change the sector and what needs to be done to ensure that the right skills are developed within the sector to adapt to that change.

Lee Waters AC: Minister, I think it’s significant that the 1,100 jobs that were taken from Cardiff resulted in just 250 jobs, according to reports, by the time they got to Dundee. So, no doubt there were a range of factors at work, but clearly automation is happening now; rather than being a future prospect, it is live and it’s impacting our communities. I was pleased to invite you along to a roundtable on Monday with a range of experts in automation, artificial intelligence and robotics to start considering the scale of the impact that this can have on our economy. I’m delighted to hear you’ve commissioned a piece of research on the particular impact on retail and I would urge you to make sure that your economic strategy, when it’s produced, has a specific focus on automation—not simply on the threats but the opportunities too. That was one of the messages from the roundtable on Monday: there are very real advantages to public services, and to all of us as consumers, from automation, but there’s no denying the fact it’s going to change the shape of our workforce and the way that we work and we need to be ready for it.

Ken Skates AC: I thank Lee Waters for the points that he raises. Actually, the discussion that took place on Monday—which he convened, I think—was incredibly informative. It was as a consequence of that meeting that I considered it essential that we move forward with this piece of work concerning specifically contact centres, but that, given the emerging strategy, will be relevant to all sectors right across the economy. Lee Waters is absolutely right to identify the apparent disparity between the 250 jobs that would be created in Dundee and more than 1,000 that we face losing here in Cardiff. I put that very question about automation to Tesco. I was told that automation is not playing a part in this decision, but I think there is no doubt whatsoever that automation will change the sector and we need to be prepared for it. The Member is absolutely right to say that it’s not just that there will be challenges; there will also be huge opportunities. We know that automation will only go so far, that people will still require a human-to-human point of contact, and that where there is automation, that automation has to be delivered in a way that is advanced on where it is right now. For that reason, we need to be developing the new technology, we need to be the programmers, we need to be the people who deploy that technology.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

The 90-second statements next. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I want to reflect on the life and achievements of Dr Shah Imtiaz. Dr Imtiaz achieved prominence in 1988, when he was elected as mayor of Cynon Valley borough council, becoming the first Asian mayor in Wales, which he described as the proudest moment in his life.But Dr Imtiaz had been at the heart of the community since he arrived in Aberdare in 1970 to become a family doctor. As Councillor Mike Forey, his ward colleague for 19 years, said, Dr Imtiaz made a significant contribution to the political life of Cynon Valley, and to Aberdare in particular. He represented the town on Cynon valley and Rhondda Cynon Taf councils for 35 years, but his passionate activism extended beyond municipal office.Dr Imtiaz, perhaps as would be expected from a local general practitioner, was actively involved in the Aberdare hospital action group, and campaigned against the pollution caused by the phurnacite plant in Abercwmboi. Showing his empathy with the community he had made his home, he championed the miners during the 1980s and the 1990s. Dr Imtiaz was a passionate advocate of devolution, chaired Cynon Valley CND, and helped install the peace pole in front of Aberdare library. He never shied from his beliefs, stating that he was a ‘socialist by conscience’.Sadly, Dr Imtiaz passed away on 19 June. Our thoughts are with his children, but his memory and his legacy will surely live on.

Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, I had the privilege of attending the Chwarae Teg Womenspire awards, where the work of women across Wales was celebrated and recognised, with awards in categories ranging from community activism to business, industry, and the arts. And I was delighted that Sarah Draper, the fitness managing director at Inspire Fitness in Merthyr, won the game changer of the year award.With the help of grant funding, Sarah launched a group called Merthyr Girls Can in 2016, bringing together otherwise difficult-to-reach women, in terms of health and well-being, and introduced them to fitness. Sarah is teaching these women, and their families, that it’s important to get out there and engage in physical activity, be it walking, running, or just kicking a ball. Through Merthyr Girls Can, they receive self-esteem coaching, nutritional advice, one-to-one personal training, coaching support, a 20-week training programme, and unlimited exercise sessions. Due to its huge success, a further three Merthyr Girls Can groups have been formed, with phenomenal results. And Merthyr Girls Can 4 started on 1 April this year.Through Sarah’s hard work, support and encouragement, many Merthyr women have achieved amazing things, entering triathlons, marathons, gaining qualifications and employment in sport, and inspiring others into fitness. There are endless testimonials to Sarah’s work, but I would like to thank Sarah, and those like her, who give up their time tirelessly to help others. Without them, our objective of making Wales a healthier nation would be so much harder to achieve.

Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod celebrates its seventieth birthday this year, and as with all years, we will see competitors from across the world coming to sing, dance and enjoy the glories of Llangollen and the Dee valley. The first international eisteddfod was held in June 1947, and following the horrors of the second world war, there was a vision that music could heal some of the wounds of war, and that music could be used to promote peace.The first eisteddfod was a huge success, as a result of the fact that the local populous contributed over £1,000 of their own money—which accounts for some £35,000 in today’s money. And it continues to rely on the hard work of many volunteers, and we thank them for all their work. Over 300,000 competitors, from over 100 different countries, have come to compete on the festival’s stage over the years, with tens of thousands of visitors attending every year. And the festival still promotes world peace, with local children presenting the annual message of peace.It’s welcomed some of the biggest names in world music. We know of the relationship with Luciano Pavarotti, and his visit with a choir from Modena in 1955 that inspired him to become professional. This year, the festival will welcome Bryn Terfel, as well as the jazz, soul and gospel singer, Gregory Porter.In these days of discord and international dispute, in an age where walls are being erected, and boundaries placed between nations, let us celebrate the way in which the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod has opened our arms to the rest of the world. Its age-old message of peace, tolerance and fraternity is as important today as it was 70 years ago.

5. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Energy Efficiency

The next item is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on energy efficiency, and I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM6283 Huw Irranca-Davies, Jeremy Miles Supported by Lee Waters, Simon ThomasTo propose the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the £217 million Welsh Government investment over the last 5 years and further commitment of £104 million for the next 4 years to improve home energy efficiency and tackle fuel poverty.2. Further notes that investment in home energy efficiency needs to be dramatically scaled-up if Wales is to achieve its aims around decarbonisation and reducing fuel poverty.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to consider a broader range of investment approaches for energy efficiency including innovative finance, putting public sector pensions to good use, and tapping into private sector funding.4. Notes the proposal to establish a National Infrastructure Commission for Wales and calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that the long-term energy infrastructure needs of Wales and the opportunities for energy efficiency are included within its remit.5. Believes that such investment would dramatically boost efforts to tackle fuel poverty in some of our older homes, providing warm and cosy homes, improving the health and well-being of all and particularly the vulnerable.6. Further believes this would help tackle climate change, reducing the carbon emissions through energy efficiency, reducing energy consumption and reducing the number of new power stations we need to build.7. Recognises the potential for economic growth, creating many thousands of jobs in every community throughout every part of Wales.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’m delighted to introduce this debate, and could I thank colleagues—Jeremy Miles, Simon Thomas, Lee Waters—who’ve also put their name to this debate today, and others who might be speaking? But could I also thank those hidden servants of the house in the research unit as well, because, in preparation for this debate, anything that I say that sounds good will be because of them? Anything lousy will be me. So, I want to first of all explain why we’re speaking to this motion today, which is seeking to get the real formal, hard-headed recognition of energy efficiency, particularly domestic energy efficiency, as national infrastructure. But also, we say within this motion that the scale needs to be dramatically scaled up. That doesn’t simply rely on Government. We look at innovative ways of doing that. So, for example, within the motion, we talk about the use of pension schemes and other innovative financial models to scale-up that dramatic scale-up in investment that we want to see. But, most importantly, there’s the inclusion, as national infrastructure, and in Wales’s case in particular, within the national infrastructure commission for Wales remit—. That is emerging. It’s there in the background and going along. We want to see this come forward and be written down in black and white—that domestic energy efficiency is part of their remit. Why? Well, I’m going to begin by talking about the 2015 report by Frontier Economics, ‘Energy Efficiency: An infrastructure priority’. It made the case for classifying domestic energy efficiency as infrastructure. They noted that traditionally the term ‘infrastructure’ brings to mind projects like roads and rail and energy supply initiatives, but the report explored a wide range of definitions of infrastructure, covering two aspects.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The first is the characteristics, that infrastructure is generally described as ‘capital’ or ‘involving physical structures’. But, secondly, the functions, and they referred to the two most recent definitions from the UK Treasury and the London School of Economics Growth Commission, which described infrastructure as an input to the production of goods and services and the requirement for the operation of the economy. And the report goes on to suggest that domestic energy efficiency constitutes infrastructure investment because it frees up energy capacity for other uses, just as investment in new-generation capacity would, and also that such investments provide public services by reducing carbon emissions and improving health and well-being. It also goes on to say that it fits with the way that energy efficiency is considered by a wide range of international organisations, such as the European Investment Bank and the International Energy Agency. And it is also consistent with the current and ongoing roll-out of the smart meter programme, which is one of the UK Government’s top infrastructure priorities. It works across the board. It should be national infrastructure.Let’s turn to the benefits of energy efficiency. Within that particular report—I’ll start there—they point to the two key things that investment in domestic energy efficiency does. One: it reduces energy use. By doing so, it reduces bills, it frees up energy sector capacity to be used elsewhere in the economy, and it reduces the need to invest new energy system capacity. This reduces carbon emissions and decreases the exposure of consumers to volatile fuel prices. Far from the argument that putting money into this is actually a burden on consumers, for many of the poorest and most fuel-poor households, it actually protects them against that volatility in gas prices and oil prices and everything else. And, in addition, these investments provide option value. Because they involve multiple small incremental investment, the scale and the focus of the programme can be adjusted up and down over time. And also, they point out, it results in warmer, more comfortable homes. It increases health and well-being, and may also increase, by doing that, labour productivity—if we want to look at the social engineering side of this as well. So, there are a number of benefits, but they also point to economic growth and job creation. The UK Green Building Council argues that the home energy efficiency market can stimulate both construction and manufacturing industries. It points out that, currently, over 135,000 people are employed in the energy-efficiency industry, but it quotes figures from Consumer Focus that suggest that major investment—bigger investment—in energy efficiency could almost double the number to 260,000 people by 2027, and it goes on to say that installing energy efficiency measures usually requires local labour, often from small and medium-sized businesses and microbusinesses. And because of this, investment has the potential to boost local employment. We’ve talked previously about the need to do this and about innovative ways of thinking to do this. This is exactly the foundation economy approach there. And this is supported by figures contained within the Welsh Government’s infrastructure investment plan, which I’ll turn to in a moment, which states that over 80 per cent of the businesses that delivered phase 1 of the Arbed programme, under the Warm Front programme, operate primarily or solely in Wales. It’s a win-win right across the board.Let’s talk about energy security. The UK Green Building Council report states that reducing domestic energy demands through energy efficiency is vital to ensuring that there’s a sufficient supply to meet the UK’s energy needs. It goes further: it says that investing in energy efficiency is not only more cost-effective in meeting the UK’s growing demand for energy than building additional energy generation infrastructure—stop building so many power stations and actually invest in this as the better substitute.Data from the Sustainable Energy Association show that energy-saving measures cost less on average per unit of power than large-scale power generation. And 2012 figures from the Department of Energy and Climate Change show that, through cost-effective investment in all forms of energy efficiency, the UK could be saving 196 TWh in 2020, equivalent to 22 power stations of energy. So, meeting energy needs to demand reduction will also reduce the UK’s dependency on fossil fuels and gas. Let me turn to the reduction in carbon emissions. We’ve made our commitment in Wales, as has the UK, to reducing carbon emissions. In 2014 the residential sector in Wales accounted for 8 per cent of emissions. The sector is dominated by emissions from residential stationary and mobile combustion of fuels from activities such as heating and cooking, which account for 97 per cent of emissions in this sector. I think I’ve made the point that if you invest in energy efficiency here, in this sector, you will deal with carbon emissions in a major way as well. In value for money, the Frontier Economics report compared, interestingly, the net benefits and benefit cost ratios of an energy efficiency scheme of scale with four other major schemes, showing that an energy efficiency programme compares very well to the alternative investments, including Crossrail, HS2 and the roll-out of smart meters. They reckon the benefits of an upscaled programme of energy efficiency in the residential sector would be equivalent to £8.7 billion of societal benefits. And, of course, as we’ve mentioned, it reduces energy bills and helps to combat fuel poverty.According to YouGov research, rising energy bills are the No. 1 financial concern for householders. Some in this Chamber—a few—would say that that’s the very reason not to invest in this stuff because you’re loading it onto people’s bills. I’ve already dealt with the volatility of oil and gas issues; this is actually protecting consumers. But a DECC paper on fuel poverty from 2012 states that policies that improve the efficiency of the housing stock are more cost-effective and have longer term impacts on tackling fuel poverty than energy price policies or capping or income support policies. Those may be useful—this is the most useful way to do it. On improving health and well-being, let me turn to the Hills fuel poverty review, which found that low temperatures in homes can create conditions that increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events—some of which may result in death—exacerbate the risk of respiratory disease and cause physical discomfort, which can contribute to mental health issues as well. We know this; we’ve seen it before through hard winters. DECC has undertaken modelling to value the health benefits associated with energy efficiency investments and it concluded that these can be significant across the board.So, let me turn in my concluding remarks to where we are in Wales. The Government has done so much and I’ll leave the Cabinet Secretary to outline that. I’m not going to do that in my report and I know she’ll do it well and I could have done it as some of my preamble: the investment we’ve put in Arbed and Nest and the Warm Front programme and many other ways. We’re doing so many good things and, in fact, the motion notes that. But if we look at the Wales infrastructure investment plan, which is the plan that informs and co-ordinates investment decisions, it’s intended to maximise the impact of the Welsh Government’s major infrastructure programmes. Back in 2012, the most recent iteration, it states there:‘Investment to support energy efficiency and the development of new energy sources is…an important part of the strategy.’And it goes on to say:‘Energy efficiency through the refurbishment of housing and other estates and the introduction of energy standards for new buildings have an immediate impact on employment since these activities require many work hours. Investment in these areas therefore will have unusually large effects in employing complementary labour.’There have been sustained calls now from stakeholders—WWF, National Energy Action, Community Housing Cymru, Energy Saving Trust, and many, many more—to make energy efficiency now an explicit infrastructure priority for Wales. We are doing so much, but let’s see it there in the remit of the national infrastructure commission for Wales. The evidence is there. I know the Cabinet Secretary knows it’s there. She will say all the good work that the Welsh Government is doing—and it is—but let’s take it to the next stage. Let’s scale it up and make a difference to people’s lives, to their communities, to their homes, and also deal with all those myriad of other issues that we want to see dealt with.

Mark Isherwood AC: Last week, I hosted and spoke at the launch of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency. I was a member of the energy watch cross-party group during the second Assembly and chaired the cross-party group on fuel poverty during the third and fourth Assembly terms. We worked together to establish the Fuel Poverty Coalition and to launch the fuel poverty charter in 2009, and to secure the Welsh Government’s revised fuel poverty strategy in 2010. Working with Fuel Poverty Coalition members, the new cross-party group will campaign to place fuel poverty at the heart of action to tackle poverty, with strong emphasis on all sectors taking responsibility together. NEA Cymru—National Energy Action—is keen to engage with Assembly Members in their work on fuel poverty and through the new cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, and I urge any Members who have not completed their short survey, which has been sent to you by e-mail, to do so.In 2012, almost 30 per cent of Welsh households were estimated to be in fuel poverty, spending 10 per cent or more of their household income on fuel to maintain heat adequate enough to safeguard comfort and health. Investment in home energy efficiency improvements via Welsh Government and UK Government schemes, combined with changes in household incomes and fuel prices, saw this fall to 23 per cent in 2016. That still represents 291,000 households in Wales, including 43,000 in severe fuel poverty. As the Bevan Foundation and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation told the Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee two years ago, fuel poverty should have a higher profile in the Welsh Government’s tackling poverty action plan because it’s a fundamental human need to have a warm home. There is no realistic prospect of achieving the 2018 target of eradicating fuel poverty in Wales and, as Age Cymru state: ‘many of the mechanisms and measures contained within the 2010 Fuel Poverty Strategy are now out of date or no longer applicable.’They add that ‘the time is right’ for Welsh Government to refresh its fuel poverty strategy, with a clear programme and timescales, credible evidence base and an ambitious new fuel poverty target rooted in delivery, rather than being a hostage to energy price movements.As NEA Cymru stated at Wales’s annual fuel poverty conference in March, we drastically need a new fuel poverty strategy, adding that, whilst the Welsh Government’s investment in energy efficiency schemes through its Warm Homes programme is commendable, we need a step change in ambition. They’ve asked Assembly Members to call on the Welsh Government: to designate domestic energy efficiency as a key national infrastructure priority at the heart of the national infrastructure commission for Wales’s investment priorities; to develop a new long-term strategy for addressing fuel poverty as a matter of urgency; to set a new fuel poverty target; to improve homes to a minimum energy efficiency, backed up with the data needed; to invest in a well-resourced, well-targeted energy efficiency programme for fuel-poor households in Wales; to save lives by implementing the NICE guidelines on tackling excess winter deaths; to fund independent advice services to support people in fuel poverty; and to protect vulnerable households with a crisis fund for emergency heating when their health is at risk.At last month’s rural north Flintshire community hub launch by the North Wales Energy Advice Centre, we heard that this tackling fuel poverty project, including Flintshire’s affordable warmth crisis fund, should be a model for spreading across communities in rural Wales. NEA deliver projects to assist fuel-poor households in Wales, including a health and innovation programme. In March, with NEA Cymru, I hosted the Assembly launch of Calor’s rural Welsh energy advisorship programme 2016-17 to assist fuel-poor households. The independent, charitable British Gas Energy Trust helps around 25,000 vulnerable households each year, and Centrica, their parent company, has charity partnerships with StepChange Debt Charity—I declare that one of my daughters works for them—CLIC Sargent and Macmillan, and works closely with Action on Hearing Loss, RNIB and Mind. E.ON add value to their energy company obligations support for communities in Wales through locally funded projects, community engagement and job creation schemes.Well, with almost one in four households in Wales still unable to afford to heat their homes, it’s clear that we need to maintain the political focus on fuel poverty and energy efficiency at this National Assembly. It’s essential that the Welsh Government works with Fuel Poverty Coalition members to place fuel poverty at the heart of action to tackle poverty, engaging with all sectors and so maximising the opportunity presented by working together.

Vikki Howells AC: I want to start by thanking the AMs for Ogmore and Neath for tabling this motion today. As the motion succinctly notes, ensuring Welsh homes are energy efficient is vital environmentally. This is in terms of tackling climate change and also reducing consumption, but it is also vital economically, too. If we want to look to a common thread uniting communities across Wales, it is the potential to create jobs and grow the economy based on ensuring that the homes these communities possess are energy efficient. Cambridge Econometrics have suggested that every £1 invested in energy efficiency measures would achieve £3.20 in growth.Moreover, tackling the fuel poverty that can be both cause and effect of energy inefficiency remains a key challenge for us in terms of tackling social justice. It is this aspect of the motion that I want to focus my remarks on today, expanding on ideas and concepts contained in my short debate last week on poverty in Wales.The motion notes a Welsh Government commitment of £321 million over nine years to improve energy efficiency and tackle fuel poverty. This is to be welcomed, as the current Cabinet Secretary and previous Ministers have ensured these remain political priorities. Indeed, although the ambition to eliminate fuel poverty by 2018 is unlikely to be met, I am proud to support a Welsh Government that has not shied away from the challenge.The Warm Homes programme has seen Welsh Government funding go to improve the energy efficiency of over 27,000 homes. Households have been able to heat their homes at a more affordable level and reduce their energy bills. Twenty-five thousand homes will similarly be improved over the next four years. Equally important is the Warm Homes on Prescription pilot, under which Care and Repair have been awarded a £0.25 million grant by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children. This aims to prevent the admissions and readmissions to hospital of older people with poor health caused by extreme cold. Our investment in housing should also be linked to efforts to reduce or eliminate fuel bills. Taken together, these measures have had an impact.Fuel poverty levels in Wales have declined from an estimated 29 per cent of households in 2012 to 23 per cent in 2016. However, this figure still represents nearly one in every four households in Wales. It starkly illustrates the scale of the challenge to eliminate the problem, and it is just unacceptable that 291,000 households in Wales are unable to afford to adequately heat their homes. Furthermore, as National Energy Action Cymru has identified, 3 per cent of Welsh households are estimated to be in severe fuel poverty. This means that they need to spend at least 20 per cent of their household income on energy to achieve an adequate level of warmth.The Trussell Trust has recognised the link between use of its food bank networks and fuel poverty. To tackle the problem, it has developed a system of fuel banks, which allows food bank users on pre-payment meters to receive vouchers so that they can keep their heating on for two weeks. Merthyr Cynon Foodbank in my constituency is part of this project. Fuel poverty can have an impact across all areas of Government, in terms of not just housing or energy, but also health, economic performance and, indeed, education. Children growing up in cold homes have poorer attainment levels than their peers. So, we must take a whole-Government approach to this issue. We must also recognise the context that we do not have access to all of the levers needed to eradicate this problem. For example, the cost of fuel itself, but also initiatives like the winter fuel payment. Perhaps the retention of that is the silver lining in May’s alliance with the DUP. But we must ensure we do all that we can.NEA Cymru have suggested a range of practical solutions to help meet the challenge: ensuring there is a single-point-of-contact health and housing referral service for people living in cold homes; asking the new public services boards to outline how they intend to address cold homes and fuel poverty in their local well-being plans; and the development of a new long-term strategy for addressing fuel poverty, bringing all threads together. I also support the measures outlined in the motion relating to the national infrastructure commission, and exploring innovative finance models. I commend this motion today.

David J Rowlands AC: Can I begin by saying that UKIP will be supporting this motion? Indeed, I myself have argued for the emphasis to be on reducing carbon output by using the sort of strategies outlined in the motion proposals, rather than concentrating on so-called carbon-free energy production. Because there is, of course, no such thing as carbon-free energy production because the production of, say, solar panels or wind turbines themselves causes high degrees of carbon output, especially when you consider the long-distance transportation of these products. As my colleague pointed out in a previous debate, sea-going vessels are some of the most polluting agents on earth, and we know that the vast majority of solar panels, et cetera, are produced in China.

Lee Waters AC: Will the Member give way?

David J Rowlands AC: Of course.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much. He started so well, and I just want to save him from himself, because, of course, it’s not an either/or, is it? There’s no need to get hung up on your usual tirade against renewables; we need both.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, I welcome that intervention. Of course we do. We need both things to work in harmony. What we’re talking about here, though, of course, is where the emphasis should lie, and I’m in agreement with this motion, where the emphasis should lie. Whilst agreeing with point 2 in the proposals, I have to note here that there is more than a little irony in the proposal to reduce fuel poverty, when we consider that much of this fuel poverty is the result of high fuel prices caused by decarbonisation levies. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, the extra fuel costs were £327 per household in 2014, rising to £875 in 2030—these costs being disproportionately felt by the poorest in society. So, if we are to have these levies, let’s make sure that they are used in the best possible way. I also note in these proposals that energy efficiency is understandably mentioned several times, but I have to point out that there seems to be some confusion here, because the most energy-efficient methods of electricity production are often high-carbon producers. Coal-fired power stations are far more efficient, with anything up to 45 per cent and running at 85 per cent capacity, as opposed to solar panels, which are as low as 12 per cent with 20 per cent capacity. Now, I am not calling for coal-fired power stations—please understand that. So, calling for energy efficiency to be on the national infrastructure commission’s remit could have the opposite effect to that desired in this motion.However, yes, let us commit to all of the proposals outlined in this motion, but perhaps we should go even further and call upon the Welsh Government to support the industries that are the cutting edge of energy-efficient technology, and there are many here in Wales. As the motion states, this is a huge opportunity to create long-term sustainable industries and jobs. Wales can and should be at the forefront of these exciting technological advances.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I also welcome this debate by my fellow Labour Members, Huw Irranca-Davies and Jeremy Miles. It highlights the pre-existing good work of the Welsh Labour Government in practice, and challenges us to continue and further this work as a national priority for Wales.Since 2011, the Welsh Labour Government has invested more than £270 million in the Welsh Government’s Warm Homes scheme and improved the energy efficiency of more than 39,000 homes. In January, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths, announced an additional £40 million to take direct action to reduce people’s energy bills and improve the energy efficiency of up to 25,000 more homes. So, why is this initiative, and this debate, so important? Well, official findings, published in April in the fuel poverty health data linking report, evidence that there was actual lower health service use among people who had benefited from the Welsh Government Warm Homes Nest Scheme. This study used NHS data to compare the health service use of people who had benefited from Nest home energy improvements, and a control group who were eligible for improvements but were still waiting for these to be completed. The research found that GP events for respiratory illness fell by almost 4 per cent for those who had benefited from Nest improvements, while those rose by almost 10 per cent in the control group over the same period. A similar pattern was found in relation to asthma events, with a 6.5 per cent decrease in the recipient group and a 12.5 per cent increase in the control group for the same period. So, this is clear, undisputable evidence of the value and worth of Welsh Government investment in home energy improvements in health.Moreover, fundamentally we have a moral and ethical obligation to ensure that low-income households and communities are assisted in ensuring their homes are energy efficient and the attendant benefits that are a consequential outcome delivered. I would agree, therefore, with the call for the Welsh Government to consider how it can further expand these programmes and on a national infrastructural platform.There must surely be a consensus across this Chamber that providing funding for energy-efficient improvements to those living in deprived communities across Wales is a no-brainer, because it helps to counter ill health, reduce climate change—although there is dispute from some as to whether climate change exists—helps eradicate fuel poverty and the poverty premium, and it boosts economic development and regeneration in Wales, as has been stated, on both a foundational and productivity platform.Deputy Llywydd, as the debate notes, the proposal to establish a national infrastructure commission for Wales must have energy efficiency within its remit for the holistic and evidenced well-being for all the people of Wales and, in particular, our most vulnerable. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: May I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this debate before us this afternoon, and for the opportunity to contribute to it? I’d like to thank Huw for his commitment in this area, which is well known to us all. At this point in the debate, my contribution will be on the basis that if you can’t come up with a new argument, at least you can reiterate good points made by others.

Simon Thomas AC: In another language. [Laughter.]

Jeremy Miles AC: In another language. But there are plenty of valid points that have already been made.Ategaf y pwyntiau roedd Huw Irranca-Davies yn eu gwneud, yn arbennig ynglŷn â gwneud effeithlonrwydd ynni yn fater o flaenoriaeth seilwaith cenedlaethol. Yr hyn sy’n mynd gyda hynny, ar un ystyr, yw’r ymdeimlad o genhadaeth genedlaethol ynglŷn â maint yr her y mae ef ac eraill wedi’i nodi.Rydym wedi amlinellu ac wedi siarad eisoes am fanteision amgylcheddol ac yn hollbwysig, yr effaith ar ein nod o leihau tlodi tanwydd. Rwyf am gyffwrdd yn fyr ar y budd economaidd arall y mae rhai wedi sôn amdano, sef cryfhau ein heconomïau lleol, sy’n un o’r amcanion y mae llawer ohonom yn y Siambr yn eu rhannu. Mae nifer o siaradwyr wedi crybwyll mater yr economi sylfaenol, sy’n chwarae rhan yn ein heconomi genedlaethol, ac mae’n ymddangos i mi fod ôl-ffitio tai at ddibenion effeithlonrwydd ynni yn enghraifft berffaith o’r mathau o sectorau a gweithgareddau yr ydym yn edrych arnynt pan fyddwn yn siarad am y math hwnnw o weithgaredd economaidd lleol, gyda’r galw parhaus, sy’n gallu cefnogi, fel y mae eraill wedi dweud, cyflogaeth leol yn y cynllun Arbed, a oedd yn un o fanteision sylweddol y rhaglen honno. Yn wir, o’r 51 o gwmnïau gosod a oedd yn rhan o’r cam cyntaf, mae 41 ohonynt yn gweithredu yng Nghymru yn unig. O’r 17 o gynhyrchion a gâi eu defnyddio, pump yn unig ohonynt a gâi eu cynhyrchu yng Nghymru, sy’n dangos maint y cyfle yno ar gyfer cynyddu cynhyrchiant lleol rhai o’r cynhyrchion hyn yn ogystal.Er bod hon yn alwad genedlaethol, rwyf eisiau siarad yn fyr am y ffaith na ddylem golli golwg ar y budd cymunedol a ddaw o effeithlonrwydd ynni. Mae peth o’r gwaith a wnaed ar ôl-ffitio yn y gymuned, sy’n symud y tu hwnt i dai preswyl ac yn edrych ar adeiladau busnes, seilwaith trafnidiaeth, mannau gwyrdd ac yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd lawer mwy cyfannol tuag at effeithlonrwydd ynni—credaf fod llawer o werth yn y math hwnnw o ddull. Cafodd ei dreialu mewn rhai cymunedau. Mantais hynny yw eich bod yn cael cyfle i ddefnyddio eiddo a diddordeb a gallu masnachol a phreswyl, a fydd yn ystyriaeth bwysig pan fyddwn yn edrych ar fodelau ariannu gwahanol ar gyfer cyflawni hyn. Hefyd, mae’n galluogi pobl i ymgysylltu ar raddfa lawer mwy, sy’n dwyn nifer o fanteision eraill yn ei sgil. Felly, byddwn yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i fyfyrio ar y model hwnnw. Cafwyd enghreifftiau da. Ceir enghraifft enwog iawn ohono yn Swydd Rhydychen, lle mae model cydweithredol wedi cyflwyno cynhyrchiant adnewyddadwy yn y gymuned a hefyd wedi defnyddio’r cyllid ohono i ariannu effeithlonrwydd ynni. Mae’n ymddangos i mi fod y cysylltiad rhwng creu ffrwd refeniw drwy ynni adnewyddadwy yn y gymuned, a modd o dalu am rai o’r mesurau rydym yn eu trafod—mae’r cysylltiad hwnnw i’w weld yn rhan gwbl sylfaenol o ddarparu ystod o fodelau cynaliadwy ar gyfer cyflawni’r amcanion y mae’r cynnig hwn yn eu nodi.Rwyf eisiau cyffwrdd yn fyr ar yr ystod honno o ffynonellau cyllid. Mae angen i ni edrych—mae maint yr her yn arwyddocaol. Mae yna wariant cyhoeddus. Mae yna faterion yn ymwneud â chyfranddaliadau a dalwyd am rai o’r datblygiadau hyn mewn mannau eraill. Mae yna rwymedigaethau cwmnïau cyfleustodau, ac nid yw’r rheiny dan reolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru, ond byddwn yn gobeithio y byddem yn gweld llawer mwy o uchelgais ar lefel y DU gyfan o ran gwireddu rhai o’r ffynonellau cyllid hyn.Mewn dadl fer a gyflwynais yr wythnos diwethaf gelwais arnom i edrych yn llawer mwy rhyngwladol ar rai o’r enghreifftiau o lwyddiant mewn mannau eraill. Byddwn yn annog Llywodraeth Cymru i edrych ar Energiesprong yn yr Iseldiroedd—nid wyf yn siŵr a wyf wedi ei ynganu’n gywir, ond mae’n esiampl sydd wedi llwyddo yn yr Iseldiroedd, yn y lle cyntaf ar sail ôl-ffitio tai cymdeithasol, sy’n cynnig gwarant perfformiad ynni i drigolion, amserlen cyflawni 10 diwrnod, gyda’r buddsoddiad yn cael ei ariannu gan arbedion costau ynni, gan weithio ar y cyd â darparwyr tai cymdeithasol sydd wedyn yn darparu rhyw fath o gontract ynni i’w tenantiaid, fel contract ffôn symudol. Mae hwnnw’n fodel sydd wedi gweithio yno, ac rwy’n credu y dylem edrych ar y math hwnnw o fodel yn y DU, ac yn benodol yng Nghymru, wrth i ni edrych am bob math o gyllid cyfalaf ar gyfer yr amcan polisi pwysig hwn.

Lee Waters AC: I’m very pleased to join Simon Thomas in supporting the motion put forward in the name of Jeremy Miles and Huw Irranca-Davies. I should commend Huw Irranca-Davies for an excellent speech, in which I agreed with every word. We need to cut to the chase here. The Welsh Government have done much, but we need to do much, much, much more, and we must do it quickly. As the motion notes, investment in home energy efficiency needs to be dramatically scaled up if Wales is to achieve its aims around decarbonisation and reducing fuel poverty. We should follow Germany and Denmark in having targets for decreased total energy use and, as a first step, we need to take a thorough examination of how we use energy and how we can make dramatic savings from space heating, transport, crucially—often a neglected area—industry and electricity use. We don’t treat energy as the scarce resource that it is. We are wasteful. We burn a huge amount in our cars. The majority of our car journeys are for very short local distances that we could make in more sustainable ways, and we use a lot in our homes. Our housing stock is poorly insulated. We need much better space insulation in houses and businesses. We need ground and air-source heat pumps as well as technological advances like LED lights and more efficient white goods to cut down our energy consumption. The emphasis, as Huw said, must be on reducing rather than just constantly increasing capacity. Instead of building power stations, we should first be looking at how we can save—a much more efficient way to spend our scarce resource.We know that energy from buildings accounts for some 37 per cent of carbon emissions, so the environmental case for tackling this is self-evident, but there’s an economic case too. Two years ago, I was privileged to work with Professor Gareth Wyn Jones, who’s done incredible work in this field over decades, and with Professor Gerry Holtham, on the Institute of Welsh Affairs’ ‘An economic strategy for Wales?’ That report concluded that the economic case for making the energy efficiency of Wales’s housing stock a national infrastructure priority is strong.As the motion notes, the proposed infrastructure commission for Wales should include energy efficiency within its remit. As Vikki Howells has pointed out, upgrading all band C homes in Wales would cost somewhere in the region of £2.5 billion to £3 billion by 2035. And, if you apply the findings of Verco and Cambridge Econometrics to that, you’d see a return of investment of about £3.20 for every £1 invested. Huw Irranca-Davies ran through a litany of projects— Crossrail, most notably—that deliver far less value for money. I would add the £1.62 return for investment in the M4, which we’re putting £1 billion into. If we put that kind of money into energy efficiency, we could see a far greater economic return to create both jobs and long-term benefits.I can think of no better example, Dirprwy Lywydd, of putting into practice the aims and objectives of the future generations Act than a proper, gutsy, bold project on energy efficiency. This Welsh Government has been investing, on average, somewhere around £50 million a year in Warm Homes schemes, and that’s varied a little bit, and that’s been welcomed, but that should only be a taster. It’s shown what can be done. Now we’ve tested it, we really must put rocket boosters—energy-efficient ones, obviously—underneath that policy.Work by Citizen’s Advice suggests that the Government needs to take a strong lead to communicate the benefits of energy efficiency. Their research suggests that governments at all levels haven’t done this well enough. They found people are most likely to respond positively to upfront, positive incentives like grants and loans at attractive rates, followed, intriguingly, by the prospect of negative incentives in the future. So, for example, we could say that, in five years’ time, we will increase council tax bandings for inefficient properties and now we will offer attractive grants and loans to help householders meet the EPC ratings and avoid that future penalty. That’s the sort of thing we should be doing. They also point out we shouldn’t penalise those poorest, and they talk about shifting demand as a scheme that should be done alongside this. They point to the Ynni Lleol project in Bethesda, supported by the Welsh Government, which encourages residents to use energy at different times of day to take advantage of cheap generation within what is effectively, then, a local internal energy market. This kind of model, scaled up, could clearly benefit all consumers if it reduced peak loads across the grid as a whole. As I say, Dirprwy Lywydd, it’s time for us to stop testing; it’s time to start doing, at scale.

Thank you, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I start by thanking the Members for tabling this debate this afternoon and all those who’ve contributed to the debate? Much of what we’ve discussed today does chime with my energy statement of December last year around using energy more efficiently, moving to low-carbon generation, levering in more resources, and gaining economic benefit from the new technologies and business models that now are emerging from the transition. This does include our highly successful flagship Welsh Government Warm Homes programme, which has been designed to ensure economic benefits for Wales in terms of employment and business opportunities. All of the energy efficiency improvements installed under our schemes have been delivered by Wales-based SMEs.Between 2011 and 2016, we have invested over £217 million in Welsh Government Warm Homes to improve the energy efficiency of over 39,000 homes of those on low incomes or living in the most deprived areas of Wales, and I expect to publish the 2016-17 figures next month. So, it’s significant funding, but, as Lee Waters said, we really need to see how much more we can put in. I’d love to put £1 billion into our energy efficiency programmes, but I think we have to be pragmatic. Last year, the Nest scheme delivered estimated average energy bill savings of over £400 per household. If these estimated savings were realised for every home improved through Nest, it would equate to annual energy bill savings of over £9.5 million per year. We also recently published the findings of research on the health impacts of Nest. The research shows that the scheme is having a very clear, positive impact on the health of recipients, with a reduction in the use of the NHS by those receiving energy efficiency measures through the scheme. Those findings have supported our decision to extent the eligibility criteria for our new Nest scheme to include householders on low incomes who have a respiratory or circulatory condition. So, we are making progress in tackling fuel poverty, despite the fact that some of the levers, as Vikki Howells said, for tackling fuel poverty are not devolved. Powers over welfare reform, for instance, and the regulation of the retail energy market, rest with the UK Government. I have to say that the plans that were set out in the Tory manifesto to get rid of winter fuel payment wouldn’t help either. Overall, fuel poverty has reduced from 29 per cent in 2012 to 23 per cent in 2016, which is a reduction of 6 percentage points in just four years. Over the next four years, we’ll invest a further £104 million in Welsh Government Warm Homes, and that will enable us to improve up to 25,000 homes of those on low incomes, or, again, living in the most deprived areas of Wales. Our investment will lever in up to £24 million of EU funding in addition to funding from the UK energy company obligation. Our investment helps provide stability and certainty for the energy efficiency supply chain in Wales to grow their business at a time when the UK Government has undermined confidence in the industry with their stop-start approach to energy supplier obligations. I’m also looking to strengthen building regulations through our proposed Part L review this year. This will look at how we can control insulation values and reduce energy usage in homes. In addition, we’ve been exploring opportunities to lever in more resources and support from energy suppliers, local authorities, pension funds, and others, to accelerate investment across Wales to tackle fuel poverty and support our decarbonisation ambitions. I’m looking at all opportunities for innovation, both in energy efficiency products and in financial models, which can then help support the uptake of energy efficiency improvements amongst able-to-pay households as well as those on low incomes. I will be making an announcement in the autumn on my proposals. Energy efficiency in general terms will be included in the scope of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales’s remit, although the commission will only consider economic infrastructure. We believe a modern, efficient, and reliable energy infrastructure is important for our businesses and communities, and we’re committed to supporting the development of new, renewable energy generation. Renewable and low-carbon electricity and heat form an important element of Welsh Government’s approach to decarbonisation. To deliver secure and affordable low-carbon energy, we need that mix of different technologies and sizes, from community scale to major projects. The transition to a low-carbon economy not only reduces emissions, but brings opportunities around clean growth, quality jobs, and global market advantages. I’m committed to achieving a more circular economy in Wales and using the earth’s natural resources far more efficiently.Energy is a key economic imperative that underpins our aims for a secure and prosperous Wales. In terms of opportunities, this means supporting large energy investments in on-shore renewables, marine, nuclear, and so on, including our two largest energy investment projects: Wylfa Newydd and the proposed Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Wylfa Newydd, for example, is estimated to create 850 permanent jobs, and thousands more for a temporary period. Arbed, too, has created more than 470 jobs and delivered more than 60,000 hours of training in green technologies to existing and new employees. The no-carbon economy is one of the UK’s fastest-growing sectors, creating jobs and providing investment across each region. I’ve written to the UK Government on a number of occasions setting out the benefits from renewable developments. We are also committed to supporting community-led energy projects. As a result of Welsh Government’s support, 15 community schemes are up and running, providing benefit to the local area. I agree with Jeremy Miles: it’s very interesting to see some of the co-operative models that are coming forward, and I’ve been very lucky to not just visit, but to open, such schemes since I’ve been in this portfolio.I’m also looking to set ambitious yet realistic targets for renewable energy in Wales. The evidence from the decarbonisation pathway will inform the setting of any targets and enable us to assess which pathways provide the best opportunities and outcomes for Wales. I’m committed to using all my powers to provide ongoing support mechanisms that ensure we retain the ability to deliver new-generation developments and efficiency whilst managing the cost to bill payers.

Thank you very much. I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank everyone who’s contributed to this debate, noting, perhaps, that debates such as this one aren’t as exciting as last night’s debate on the DUP and the Conservative party. However, I think we had some thoughtful contributions that have not only interpreted the problem that we have but have proposed some new ideas in this context. I look forward to further debate with the Cabinet Secretary, because, although she, too, contributed to the debate, I think she has been encouraged to do even more by some contributors, and I think there is still some work to be done in pressing the Government to go further and more quickly along the route that they are already travelling.I, certainly, approach this with as much attention on fuel poverty as on the economy or even the environment. I welcome the fact that the cross-party group has been established with Mark Isherwood, and I look forward to supporting that. It’s true to say, as Rhianon Passmore mentioned, that there is a specific health impact here. A baby born today living in a cold home is three times more likely to suffer from asthma or similar conditions. Living in cold homes kills as many people as smoking, lack of exercise, and the misuse of alcohol—that’s the scale of the problem that we’re facing. It’s also important to say that the educational attainment of children is impacted by not having a warm place to study and to live. Therefore, there is a task for us all to tackle this issue, not only in terms of the economy, but in terms of health and well-being.I think that one of the themes that Huw Irranca-Davies focused on in setting out the debate very thoroughly—this was supported by Jeremy Miles and Lee Waters—is the concept that we should look at energy efficiency as something that’s a national infrastructure issue and should be part of the work of the commission. I’m pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that energy efficiency will be part of that work, but I would tell her that, if the commission is going to focus mainly on economics, the arguments made by Vikki Howells and Lee Waters show that this is a major economic contribution that the commission should not only recognise, but should take forward with gusto.The impact on local communities is of particular interest, as Jeremy Miles outlined. We can learn from international examples by setting more focused targets, and stricter targets, that respond to the demands here, and also by looking at some new ideas that are within our powers now in terms of encouraging developments in this area. Lee Waters suggested that we use council tax. I would prefer to reward people than penalise them, but I accept the point that you made. Perhaps you’d be interested to know that Plaid Cymru suggested, as we looked at the Bill that is now the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Act 2017, that we should give stamp duty relief when selling property if that property had attained a certain level of energy efficiency. Although the amendment wasn’t accepted by Mark Drakeford, a principle has been accepted in terms of discussing how we can use the legislation and taxes passed here to impact on people’s behaviours in order to encourage that investment in energy efficiency, and I look forward to that.I’m pleased that the motion has been welcomed across the Chamber, including by David Rowlands. I agreed with the beginning and end of David Rowlands’s speech. I didn’t agree with the rationale, but at least his support is in place for the concepts in the motion. So, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this debate. It’s been a valuable one, and I’m sure that people outside the Chamber will have followed this debate with some interest. All I will say in conclusion to the Cabinet Secretary is that you have you have now heard how much support there is for what you’re doing in all parts of the Chamber, but you’ve also heard that we need you to do a lot more.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. 6. Debate by the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on its Report on the Future of Agricultural and Rural Development Policies in Wales

We now move on to a debate by the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on its report on the future of agricultural and rural development policies in Wales and I call on the Chair of the Committee to move the motion—Mike Hedges.

Motion NDM6347 Mike HedgesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Notes the report of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on the future of land management in Wales, which was laid in the Table Office on 26 March 2017.

Motion moved.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am an example of Harold Wilson’s statement, ‘a week is a long time in politics’. [Laughter.] I am delighted to open today’s debate on the report from the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on the future of land management in Wales, although I feel like someone going up to collect the cup and not having played in the tournament. I am grateful to all those who took the time to contribute to the inquiry. I would also like to thank the previous Chair of the committee, Mark Reckless, all the members of the committee, and the clerking team, for their efforts in delivering this report.For over 40 years, the way agricultural produce has been farmed, sold, and financially supported has been decided primarily at a European level. The vote to leave the European Union means that Wales will, in future, have the opportunity—or the threat—to mould policies closer to home. So, what will the Welsh agricultural sector look like in five, 10 or 20 years? This report sets out a road map to overcome the immediate obstacles and an ambitious vision for the future. The first part of the committee’s report deals with the immediate challenges arising from Brexit. What would constitute a successful Brexit for Wales’s agriculture sector and land managers? The committee identified five key elements. First, access to the single market: the risks of failing to achieve a trade deal with the EU are grave. In 2015, Wales exported over £12 billion-worth of goods outside the UK. Over two thirds of that was sold to the EU. Last year, over 90 per cent of Wales’s meat exports were to the EU—that’s excluding movement within the United Kingdom. The value to the Welsh food production economy and jobs in Wales is too great to contemplate no longer having access to the single market. We need reassurance from the UK Government that we’ll have tariff-free access and, importantly, no quotas on exports for our agricultural producers. What we don’t want is what some other countries have—some at zero tariffs and then, above a very small number, you start paying a substantial tariff, which will only do damage to the Welsh agricultural sector. This can only be achieved if Wales has an equal voice at the negotiating table on talks regarding access to the single market. The terms have to be UK agreed, not led by Westminster.Cabinet Secretary, you have accepted in principle our recommendation relating to strengthening existing markets and developing new markets on the basis that you already undertake significant trade efforts to develop export markets. We are facing new and significant challenges. Can you explain what you are going to do differently to address them?The second key element is an appropriate level of funding. The UK Government must commit to maintain funding for agriculture at the current common agricultural policy level for this present cycle. Funding for agriculture should not be subject to the Barnett formula, because if it is, Wales, which is more dependent on agriculture, would lose out substantially, financially. We argued that, in turn, the Welsh Government allocate this level of funding for agriculture, with no reduction, until at least April 2021, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this in principle. I would be grateful for more detail from the Cabinet Secretary on her response that she ‘will continue to press for the best deal for Wales’on funding.The third element will be a regulatory framework that supports the agricultural sector. Leaving the EU will necessitate new inter-governmental relationships at a UK level. Central to this will be the development of common regulatory frameworks agreed by each of the constituent nations of the UK, not imposed from the centre. Within such frameworks, there needs to be flexibility for us to develop policies that are appropriate for Wales. These regulatory frameworks must prevent unfair competition between producers in different parts of the UK, and reassure consumers that high animal welfare and health standards will be maintained. Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on the latest ministerial-level discussions on the proposals for a UK council of Ministers and whether or not there is support for an adjudication mechanism in case of disputes? And, when I mean ‘adjudication mechanism’, I mean something that is different from being decided by the department of agriculture at Westminster. It needs to be independent and fair. The fourth element is access to labour and skills. Our agricultural and food producing and processing sectors will continue to need to access a full range of skills once the UK has left the EU. There is a grave risk to Welsh businesses if Wales’s labour needs are not reflected in negotiations on withdrawing from the EU. This also represents an opportunity to think about workforce planning for these sectors. Welsh Government needs to assess where skills shortages will be in future, and consider how skills and education policies can be aligned with the needs of the sector. We recommended the development of a skills strategy for the sector, which the Cabinet Secretary has accepted in principle only. I would be grateful if she could explain why she could not accept the recommendation in full.Finally, there must be a transitional period. The changes arising from Brexit are challenging and complex. For forty years, we have operated within systems and structures arising from our membership of the EU. In its report, the committee has emphasised the importance of a transitional phase to move to any new system of support.Part two of the committee’s report sets out a vision for what might come next. After CAP has gone, how should we support the agricultural sector in Wales? What will rural communities look like? How will communities thrive? The committee believes that we need to be ambitious and innovative, and has put forward proposals for a model of payment and support for land management that is based on sustainable outcomes. Farmers are central to the delivery of these commitments, as they manage over 80 per cent of the land area of Wales. They can help to deliver priorities such as tackling climate change, flood prevention and improving the quality of our water.What are the outcomes a new system should support? We must tackle climate change. Measures to tackle climate change should be central to a future support mechanism based on outcomes. We want to see policies that aim to reduce the carbon footprint of food production and incentivise carbon sequestration. We must support a resilient food production sector. There is an opportunity for Wales to become a more resilient, more self-reliant food-producing nation. We want Welsh Government policies that value local production, reduce the carbon footprint and protect high animal health and welfare standards. We recommended that the Welsh Government should work with producers and retailers to increase sales of Welsh produce, including through public procurement, and that includes both health and local government as well as central Government itself.We must maintain sustainable forestry and woodland. Land managers should be incentivised to increase forestry coverage in Wales, and future policy should also consider the role commercial forestry can play. We must protect and enhance biodiversity. Funding for land managers should support specific interventions for threatened species, habitats and protected sites and also promote a spatial approach to land management. We must manage the landscape for the benefit of tourism, recreation and, perhaps most importantly, for the local communities. A system of support based on outcomes must encourage and improve public access to the countryside. In addition to the considerable public health benefits, this will lead to benefits to tourism and the rural economy. We must nurture the Welsh language and vibrant rural communities. Rural communities are fundamental to a thriving Welsh culture, language and identity. Protecting the agricultural sector is vital if we want those rural communities to prosper. Many of the areas with the highest density of Welsh speakers are in rural north-west and west Wales. Any future system of support must bolster Wales’s unique cultural and economic environment and the upland farming tradition. The Welsh Government must emphasise these aspects of Welsh life in its discussions with the UK Government about the future direction of policies in the UK.In conclusion, leaving the EU provides an opportunity to realign payments for rural communities to deliver public goods such as climate change mitigation and biodiversity enhancement. Financial support for agricultural producers will be shaped differently in future. The committee’s report makes it clear that our landscapes and rural economies will continue to be managed mainly by farmers, and this should be supported with public funding. However, we can only seize these opportunities if we are guaranteed the same level of funding that Wales receives from the EU, something promised during the referendum campaign. The Welsh Government must seize the chance to design made-in-Wales policies that support the sector and reward farmers for delivering sustainable outcomes, such as protecting biodiversity and mitigating climate change. Without continued support, there will not be a managed landscape to attract tourists and a thriving rural economy to support the language and culture of Wales. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Wales needs ambitious and innovative land management policies to deliver wider environmental benefits for future generations. I hope it can be achieved.

Paul Davies AC: I’m pleased to take part in this debate and to reflect on some of the themes highlighted in this report by the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee. A significant number of the recommendations included in the report refer to agricultural trade relationships following Britain’s decision to leave the European Union, and I am pleased to note the positive response of the Cabinet Secretary to those recommendations. It is vital that a fair and permanent framework is established to protect the sustainability of the agricultural industry when Britain leaves the European Union. Several stakeholders stressed the importance of EU export markets for Welsh agricultural products, and highlighted the need for the devolved nations to have a strong voice at the negotiating table. CLA Cymru, for example, is right to say that farmers need a trade policy that creates markets for farmers here in the UK and abroad. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that Governments across the UK now work together to secure an agreement that allows farmers in Wales to continue to rely on existing export markets, to ensure that these exist in the future and to protect our farmers against cheaper imports.The evidence to the inquiry here also makes it clear that there will be individual priorities for each of the nations to discuss with the EU, and that one of Wales’s priorities will be to protect the red meat sector. I note that Hybu Cig Cymru told the committee, and I quote: I can’t over-emphasise the importance of the European market to us as far as the red meat sector is concerned, especially Welsh lamb. As the majority of you will know, one third of the Welsh lamb production from Wales, which is about 1.3 million lambs, actually ends up being consumed in Europe, tariff-free of any restrictions.’Of course, the Welsh Government must now work with the UK Government to ensure that sectors such as the Welsh red meat sector are prioritised strategically in any Brexit negotiations, and I welcome the Welsh Government’s response to recommendations in the report on this specific issue. The committee’s report is broad-ranging and is not only concerned with the role of agricultural trade in Brexit negotiations. Indeed, there some very interesting themes related to food production and food culture, and I’m pleased to see this particular issue getting the attention it deserves. I’m sure we all agree that Wales is unsurpassed in producing high-quality products. This policy encompasses a number of Welsh Government departments—everything from health and education to the economy—and therefore it is vital that any strategy in this area is effectively co-ordinated. I agree wholeheartedly with the committee’s view that there is a need for a higher level of support from the Government to develop a culture that creates high-quality food, sourced locally, and that creates sustainable products. For example, a lot more could be done on public procurement, particularly in relation to supporting smaller producers. Indeed, while I accept that the National Procurement Service has made some progress in this area, the Welsh Government could do more to lead the way in supporting local sourcing of food and drink for contracts, as well as building stronger ties with small and medium-sized companies, which should be supported in their efforts to access public procurement supply chains. The Welsh Government’s response to the report refers to a new approach being adopted in this area, designed to open up new opportunities for producers that have not been prioritised in the past and have not had the ability to tender successfully. I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will expand on this a little in her response to the debate.The committee report is also right to emphasise the importance of the dairy sector in Wales, and I note recommendation 17, which calls on the Welsh Government to prepare a plan for the dairy industry, in consultation with producers, distributors and retailers. Members will know that there are high input costs for dairy farmers, and I believe that there is scope here for the Welsh Government to secure more funding for capital improvements. When I quizzed the Cabinet Secretary on this particular point in March, she said that the new small grants scheme was one area where the Government could provide specific support, and I hope that she can provide more details on how the Government is doing this. I appreciate that an independent review of the dairy sector in Wales resulted in a report in March 2015. However, given the significant funding problems experienced by some farmers in the dairy sector, this may be an area that is worthy of further attention.In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, may I again thank the committee for its work on the report? This report has addressed a wide range of issues, including climate change, sustainable land practices, agriculture and food and drink. And I hope that, in light of the committee’s work, the Welsh Government will proceed with an even greater focus on supporting the agricultural industry, and will do everything it can to work with the UK Government to safeguard our agricultural industry in the future.

Simon Thomas AC: First of all, can I say that Plaid Cymru supports the committee’s recommendations in full? We’re very pleased that we were able to agree a cross-party report that set out so clearly the issues and concerns in leaving the European Union and what needed to be addressed by this Government, but also by the Westminster Government. Because I agree with the report, I don’t want to talk much about the report itself, but concentrate in two areas, I think. One is the area in which Plaid Cymru would have gone further than the report—so, to set out how we would respond to some of the challenges that are in here—and secondly, what’s happened since we published the report. Because it’s worth bearing in mind: we’re having this debate today, but the report was published at the end of March. What has actually happened? We’ve had several weeks, almost three months, since then—more than three months, actually; four months—where we would’ve hopefully seen some progress on some of these recommendations. Well, let’s examine a little of that.First of all, to say how we would respond to this report. From our point of view, we believe that membership of the single market and the customs union remains the most viable and sustainable way to maintain our agriculture sector here in Wales. We have that market that has been so successful for us to date. Farmers want to remain trading with that market. Yes, they want to explore new markets that will become available, but they want to remain trading in that market, and I think the membership of the customs union and single market is the most successful way forward on that. Plaid Cymru also wants to examine how we might firm up something that’s been said over the last few weeks around payments and continuing support for the farming sector. Because obviously, what did happen between March and today was a general election, which changed nothing, politically. It didn’t give a mandate for any sort of Brexit, has led to a mess in Westminster, and a lack of progress on the challenges set out in this report. But it has led to something that’s emerged over the last week, which is a commitment by the Westminster Government that the farming payments are now maintained for this Parliament, and that’s to 2022. So, we’ve gained a little bit of time, if you like, in that sense. I would like the Cabinet Secretary, when she has the opportunity, to confirm that she will maintain that support and it is the intention of this Government to continue that, because as she says in responding to the report,‘Continued CAP support beyond 2020 is dependent on decisions made by HM Treasury.’True, but Her Majesty’s Treasury, or Her Majesty’s Government, has said there will be support until 2022, so let’s hear a similar kind of in-principle support from this Welsh Government.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Simon Thomas AC: I also would like us to do a lot more around procurement, and Paul Davies did mention this. But clearly, if we are leaving the European Union and we have some flexibility around how we use procurement now, we can prioritise, let’s be honest, what other countries do prioritise anyway in the European Union—but there we are, let’s re-examine that argument—high welfare, high environmental standards, healthy food, local food, fresh food. These are the things that the Italians and the French use even today under present rules. But without such restrictions, we can look at how we might beef up—yes, beef up—how we produce. In hospitals, in school, in our army and our armed forces, we need to be buying UK and Welsh meat as much as possible. There’s an awful lot of progress we can make on that with contingent benefits for the agriculture sector.I also have to say that we haven’t seen the progress that I would want to see following the committee’s report in March on the workforce issues. We have, at least, just had an announcement from the Prime Minister around her, if you like, deal or offer to EU citizens in the UK. I don’t think it’s generous enough. I don’t think it’s sufficient enough to meet the concerns of the committee, and I would like to see more effort put in there. It is certainly Plaid Cymru’s view that those EU citizens that are here currently should stay and should have the same rights as they currently have. That would give some assurances within, in particular, the food production and serving side, if you like, with the restaurant trade as well. That’s all part of that particular circular economy.I also think that Plaid Cymru would go further than the report around where we see a trade deal being agreed. If we are to be leaving the single market and if we are then to strike different sorts of trade deals, then certainly we are of the view that this National Assembly should have a veto as part of a UK-wide agreement on how those trade deals should be struck. I think it’s something to be said that David Davis has recently said that the National Assembly will be formally consulted on the repeal Bill—they’ve stopped calling it a great thing—but we need to go further. We need that consultation and agreement on the trade deal that might be struck as well.The report is, I think, very comprehensive and a thorough explanation of the challenges that face us in leaving the European Union, but I think the imagination that we need to demonstrate now in responding to those challenges has not been demonstrated fully to date by the Welsh Government. It certainly has been completely absent to date from the Westminster Government, and Plaid Cymru wants to see much further action and much faster action.

Neil Hamilton AC: I’m very pleased to take part in this debate and to congratulate Mike Hedges on his emergence—as Tory leaders used to before elections—as Chairman of the committee. I know we didn’t have an election, but I can say that if there had been one and he was a candidate, he would have had my enthusiastic support, because I’ve seen the way that he has worked in the Public Accounts Committee, which is very impressive indeed, and I’m sure he’ll be an excellent chairman of the climate change committee.I believe this is a very good report. I don’t agree with absolutely every recommendation, but almost all of them, and I do think it does help to put matters in perspective. If we turn to paragraphs 8 and 11 of the report, they give us the figures that Wales exports £12.3 billion-worth of goods, but only 2 per cent of those are accounted for by food and live animal exports. So, agriculture is a vital part of the Welsh economy, but, as I said earlier on, whatever problems might be thrown up by the uncertain process of transition from where we are now to where we’ll be post Brexit, it should be relatively easy for the British Government and the Welsh Government to accommodate the financial implications of whatever is decided. I’ve no doubt whatsoever that agriculture in Wales will not be worse off, post Brexit, than it is now. Indeed, the scope for improvements are much, much greater.We have a massive trade deficit in food products. We exported, from the UK, £20 billion in food and drink; we actually import £43 billion. In 2016, the latest year for which figures are available, that trade gap actually widened by over 4 per cent. So, if the European Union is so foolish as not to enter into a successor agreement with us, then there is massive scope for import substitution, because, again, the report very usefully provides us with the effective tariff figures for food products, which are, of course, colossal. Eighty-four per cent in cattle carcasses, 87 per cent in frozen beef, 46 per cent in lamb carcasses, and so on and so forth. What that demonstrates to us is actually how regressive in its impact on ordinary people the common agricultural policy is, because tariff forms of protection are a very inefficient way of supporting agriculture and farm incomes, because the people who bear the biggest brunt of the burden are those on the lowest incomes, because everybody has to buy food and food products. Therefore, they tend to be very regressive in their impact, and one of the great advantages of being able to design for ourselves an agricultural policy for the UK and for Wales is that we will, perhaps, be able to skew the system more in favour of people at the lower end of the income scale. And I very much hope that that’s what we’ll be able to do.I do think that recommendation 2 is unrealistic, which calls for an equal voice at the negotiating table in the talks and access to the single market for the devolved nations, because the United Kingdom Government is charged with the responsibility for negotiating on behalf of the entire United Kingdom, and I think it’s unrealistic to imagine that any of the constituent nations could have a veto on its decisions. Given that England has 85 per cent of the population of the UK, it’s just not practical politics to make this argument, whatever the merits might be from Plaid Cymru’s perspective, and I fully understand why they want to make the case for that. But, nevertheless, being part of a federal system would be a very different state of affairs from the one that we currently have, and that would have implications for fiscal transfers between England and the rest of the United Kingdom as well, the consequences of which might be very significantly adverse for Wales. So, it’s a game of swings and roundabouts. But having said that, I do believe that the devolved nations should have a parity of esteem within the United Kingdom in these negotiations, and the United Kingdom Government should have at the forefront of its mind the interests of Wales, and Welsh agriculture in particular, in the negotiations. Although free trade negotiations are, inevitably, as Simon Thomas said, a trade-off of one interest against another, we must find a way of compensating the losers, if there are losers, from that process. Given the statistics that I quoted at the start of my speech, I don’t think that that is an impossible situation to find ourselves in, ultimately.As regards the issue of migration, and agricultural workers in particular, before we went into the European Union, we had a seasonal agricultural workers scheme that was being maintained right up until relatively recently, and it should be not beyond the bounds of possibility to restore that and to take account of whatever skills gaps there are in the Welsh economy, as well as in other parts of the UK. Again, that calls for sensitivity on the part of the UK Government.So, there’s very little time in this debate to go into all the complications of this process, but I do believe that this report gives us very good ground upon which to take the argument forward, and I congratulate members of the committee for reaching the consensus that they did.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I just begin by congratulating Mike Hedges on taking over the chairmanship of this committee, and also a very good first speech here in the Senedd introducing this report? Could I also thank our former Chair as well? Contrary to any rumours, he wasn’t booted off—we were doing a good old job there, and he presided over a good piece of work in this report, and over the previous work that we’d done as well, so it is worth marking the recognition of that and the fact that we came to a consensual approach within this on some very difficult areas. I think it’s a tribute to the joint working of the committee, but also the impartial stewardship that went on in this period as well. But, Mike, congratulations, and I know you’ll do a cracking job going forward as well, as you’ve already shown.I don’t want to go through all of the report now. In fact, I’m specifically going to stay away from the explicit issues to do with farming, dairy sector, Welsh lamb sector and so on. They’re in there. I agree with all of them; that’s patently obvious, and we hope that the Welsh Government will take them on board and respond to them well. But I want to deal with some more fundamental issues that I think are of importance. The first one, actually, responds to the mention that Neil has just made about recommendation No. 2 on a UK-agreed position. What I would say here is: I think the thinking of the committee on this recommendation was, as we do these negotiations in exiting the EU, and how we will come out on the environment, on agriculture and a range of other things, we should now be doing what we mean to do going on from here. We shouldn’t be waiting for the next two or three years. We’ve now come to the point, quite frankly, where the old days of being on a JMC, where the agenda is set by a UK Minister—it’s not a meaningful agenda, where the discussions are fairly cursory, where there are no meaningful outcomes, and if there are any outcomes, frankly, it’s agreed by the UK Minister rather than those sitting around—are long gone. If the forward model—and I think it is; I personally strongly feel it is, and we touch on that in later recommendations, in fact—is that we need to have that, if you like, more of a council of Ministers approach, where not only is there parity, as in, ‘We all get along very well and I’m going to show you respect’, but there is genuine parity, as in, ‘We will jointly agree what the agenda is; we don’t care whether you’ve got a 3.5 million population or a 58 million population, you have equal say around this table’—. Curiously, I would say to Neil: think of this in terms of what currently goes on in Brussel when the Council of Ministers sit down. It doesn’t matter what size that country is; it doesn’t matter whatever—they all have a power to actually say ‘no’ at some points there, whether you are Malta or whether you are the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] And I used to sit next to the Maltese Minister and he had the same power we had.Let me turn to—. So, I want to touch on those issues: recommendations 6, 7 and 8 there—those ones that talk about joint working mechanisms such as developing a UK council of Ministers. I think that is very important. We haven’t seen progress on that, despite Welsh Government making its position clear on its approach on this, and we are a few months down the line on this, but particularly in respect of agriculture and rural development and land management, as we’ve got within this report. That parity of esteem that agriculture and rural development will be developed in partnership, and there will be parity of esteem between the UK Government and devolved administrations—these may seem like simple rhetoric, but they’re not rhetorical flourishes. It is going to the essence of what we think should be, now, a changed relationship amongst the constituent parts of the UK. And it’s not diminishing the role of the UK Parliament, the UK Ministers—it’s actually saying there needs to be much more equity about the whole piece and across the nations and regions. We note in recommendation 6 that,‘The Welsh Government should seek urgent bilateral talks with the UK Government to develop a common understanding of the legal and constitutional position in respect of devolved and reserved powers.’I still think, as we speak now, we still have no clarity. We are waiting for, no longer the great repeal Act, but the repeal Act, but we still have no clarity. This I find quite amazing, that as we stand here now, months on, at this stage, and as we have Ministers for Brexit, Ministers for this, that and the other out there in Brussels at the moment negotiating, we still do not have clear a common understanding of the legal and constitutional position in respect of devolved and reserved powers at this very moment.In the brief few seconds remaining I would urge everybody to look not only at part 1, which shows the pragmatism, the issue of dealing with the here and now, the immediate challenges of land management and Brexit, but also to look at part 2, because part 2 is the pragmatic idealism of where we go in future. I say this against the background of a UK Minister who has spoken openly about the possibility of having an insurance-based scheme for farms going forward. He hasn’t spoken about them in the last couple of weeks, but he spoke about it previously. That is an open market situation where you trade your commodities against futures and so on and so forth. Well, heaven help our sole trader, upland hill farmers if they’re exposed to that, quite frankly. But there are some great ideas in here about actually explicitly rewarding, in effect, using public money to reward public goods of land management, sustainable outcomes, biodiversity et cetera, et cetera—even access. That, I think, is an exciting thing that we should grasp, going forward, from this report.

Mark Reckless AC: Even if I’m not able to congratulate the Chair of the committee on obtaining the debate, I very much want to congratulate him on his speech and for collecting the cup and what he is doing with the committee. I very much want to distinguish what I said last week about the allocation of Chairs and Standing Orders from welcoming him personally to the position, and I only hope he enjoys it as much as I did. Thank you, also, to him and Huw Irranca-Davies for their remarks.I was delighted to steer or shepherd this report through committee, and I think it’s a very strong committee and a good report that has cross-party support and, I think, speaks for Wales. I would like to concentrate my remarks on a number of the recommendations. Recommendation 6 was that there should be bilateral discussions between the Welsh Government and the UK Government. We gave some specific areas where that should happen, but in general I think it’s a good approach. I totally understand there are formal sort of cross-UK devolution approaches, whether that’s the JMC or a replacement, but I think we also need our own bilateral relationships to develop particular issues for Wales. Paul Davies mentioned red meat and, particularly, lamb exports, but also I think there’s just a very different political context. Scotland has a Government that is committed to independence and breaking up the UK. The DUP, if the Executive gets back, will have a First Minister who is in an alliance or a pact at Westminster with the Conservative Government, and has her own particular ways of influencing the agenda through that. I think we’re probably in an intermediary position to those two, but we need to be making our points forcefully, bilaterally as well as multilaterally, through the devolved arrangements, and I think we need to work together as an Assembly. We’ve done that on this report, but I hope we could also do so more generally. We were speaking yesterday about all 60 Assembly Members working together to get more resources for Wales, but, yes, particularly in the agricultural area. Andrew R.T. Davies is a farmer. He’s leader of the opposition. He’s offered his help in any way with these post-Brexit discussions to try and get the best deal for Wales, and I just hope the Welsh Government will take him up on that offer.I want to look at recommendations 9, 10 and 15, which broadly relate to funding. I think there has been some move forward on this. To me, at least, the Conservative manifesto was clear that there would be continued funding through to 2022. That wasn’t reflected in the Welsh Government’s response to the committee report. I assume that’s because that hadn’t been communicated, at that point, at Government-to-Government level. I’m pleased to hear, I think, from the Cabinet Secretary, that that has now happened, and indeed if the DUP have helped to accelerate this, at least that is one positive point.I think, as a committee, we thought very carefully about this recommendation. We want to continue getting money for Wales. We think farmers continue to need support. On the other hand, I think, for some of us, there’s a question as to how realistic it is to say that that must happen forever and a day, whatever happens to be the support at this particular point in time, because the Welsh farming and agricultural land development will develop, the CAP will develop, and we don’t know what the CAP funding is going to be between 2021 and 2027. We think that’s the most appropriate benchmark, but we also think that’s a sensible period to transition to a new system. I think now that the UK Government is offering financial support on reasonably equivalent terms through to 2022, that takes us well into that transition period. I think it would be helpful if Welsh Government could clarify and confirm that that money, to the extent that it flows from the UK, will continue to be spent on agriculture, farming and land management purposes more broadly over that period. Then we need to look to a transition into a new system. And whatever people’s views about the merits of the European Union, I think few people would say that we would have designed the CAP specifically for Wales. When we get the opportunity to determine our own agriculture policy and for land management, that will be very different.I think, for many farmers, it is going to be quite a challenge making that transition. It’s very important that we give them time to plan for that, but I think also if there is a change in funding relations and, as on recommendation 16, that we are using those to be more aligned to sustainable outcomes while producing high-quality food, but public benefit for public money, that will be a very different system. To the extent farmers plan and develop for that, I think if we move away from pillar 1 subsidies or payments simply on the basis of land ownership, one implication of that may be that the value of agricultural land becomes less over that period. One implication as a sustainable thing may be in terms of forestry. We didn’t see it as a binary thing of forestry or farming; we actually think many farmers would like to plant more woodland on their farms than they do now, and do so more easily, and that farming and forestry can work together, just as we hope that the Welsh Government and UK Government will work together to see a better future for farming and land management in Wales.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I rather disagree with Simon that the general election changed nothing politically vis-à-vis the debate we had yesterday, but I think it was very disappointing that, having called the general election, Theresa May then said absolutely nothing about the Brexit terms and conditions that, supposedly, the general election was about. We are still very much in the dark about what the future might hold, although we’re beginning to have a rational debate about the virtues of changing our immigration policy. I think that is one of the considerable threats that’s on the doorstep now, in that many of our industries are actually dependent on immigrant labour from other parts of Europe. So, for example, our tourism industry relies a lot migrant and European labour, as do our abattoirs and our food processing industry. So, we already have the challenge of fewer Europeans coming to the UK to work because of the fall in the pound, which makes the wages on offer less attractive. One of the challenges we face now is: who is going to do these jobs if they are not going to be done by other Europeans? Are we going to increase the pay in these sectors, which will attract more local people, or indeed retain the people coming from other European countries, or are we going to be happy to see these activities being exported elsewhere, whether it’s abattoirs to England or food processing to other parts of Europe? But I think that, in turn, compounds the challenges we face in relation to climate change, and the more we add on food miles, the more challenging that becomes.Neil Hamilton is right to point out that we have a massive trade deficit in food at the moment, so there are many opportunities for diversifying. However, the huge dislocation of current agricultural patterns could be needed if we’re suddenly going to be having tariffs imposed on us for entry into the single market, which will have a huge and revolutionary impact on, for example, our lamb industry, where 30 per cent of the product is exported to Europe. Tariffs would kill off that business overnight. So, it is true that whilst the CAP has guaranteed the production of food after the second world war, it hasn’t exactly delivered the sort of healthy, local food industry that certainly I would envisage that we would want, to ensure that we have a thriving agricultural sector that benefits our rural communities, but also benefits the population at large. Yes, everybody has to buy food, but what many people buy at the moment would have difficulty passing the trade description Act as being food. Quite how we’ve allowed the food processors and the distributors to dress up their products in the drive for profit at any price, whilst those who actually produce the food have really not been in the driving seat, and we’ve really lost sight of the need to nourish our nation.The Welsh Government has a key role to play through its food procurement strategy. The health of the nation relies on a radical change in our diet. Too many people never eat fresh fruit and vegetables, and if we’re not serving them in schools and hospitals, we should hardly be surprised. We have much to learn from our European partners, who take pride in their local food culture in a way that many of us fail to do. There are enormous opportunities for us here to ensure that we have a Welsh agriculture that is of cultural and social significance, beyond the numbers employed or the capital invested. We do have some pioneering food and farming businesses here in Wales and we need to continue to develop them. For example, Puffin Produce, which now produces nearly all the potatoes sold in all our supermarkets across Wales, as well as an increasing number of other vegetables as well and a few items of fruit, is a completely excellent model for the future. But, diversification has got to be on farmers’ agendas when there’s such a huge question mark over some of the things they currently rely on exporting. Many farmers say this isn’t possible because of our weather, but I challenge that business-as-usual approach, because water is the new gold and we have plenty of it, whereas the eastern part of Britain faces serious drought. We cannot go on simply extracting water from underground reservoirs to continue in an unsustainable way. So, I think there are many other ways in which we could see a diversification of our food industry, as well as an improvement in the health of our nation, as we move forward in this rather unknown landscape of the post-Brexit world.

Eluned Morgan AC: I’d like to thank the committee for their work on this report. I think there’s some excellent analysis and statistics, and it’s wonderful to see the Damascene conversion of the former Chair of the committee, Mark Reckless, previously a UKIP Member, on the need to continue to have full access to the European single market. He, I’m sure, is aware of the implications of what that implies, which goes against a whole range of promises made to the Welsh people during the Brexit referendum.

Mark Reckless AC: Will you take an intervention?

Eluned Morgan AC: I thought you might, Mark. [Laughter.]

Mark Reckless AC: I notice the Cabinet Secretary, in her response, said that it was absolutely crucial to maintain the single market and the free movement of goods, services, and capital—no reference to labour, workers or people in the Government response. I believe the whole Chamber would support free and unfettered access, as frictionless as possible, to the single market, and in particular no tariffs. I think that’s the objective of all of us, and something I believe can be achieved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Great. Well, good luck with that one. I hope that the European Union is listening. We would all love that kind of situation to be one that is delivered. We will see what is possible.I think there’s a whole load of issues that need to be considered in the light of Brexit, but I think one thing is clear and that is that we will cease to be a part of the common agricultural policy under any new model that we are part of. So, unless we get our ducks in a row pretty quickly, that’s likely to lead to massive instability and insecurity for vast numbers of people living in our rural communities. And the clock is ticking.I hope members of the committee will forgive me as I’m not going to focus on what is good in the report, which I must emphasise is excellent, but on aspects of policy that perhaps have not been given the attention that I think they deserve in the report. I believe that, like the Government in Ireland, we should be preparing for a worst-case scenario: one where we fall off a cliff and have to resort to WTO rules. It’s clearly not a desirable situation, but one for which I think we should be prepared. I think if this were to happen, it would be imperative for the farming community to shift from an industry that focuses on supply to one that focuses on demand. There’s almost no mention in the report of the need, or the possibility, of adding value to raw produce. Whilst processing food is done to an extent in Wales, the scope for expansion is absolutely enormous. Let me give you an example—

Simon Thomas AC: Could the Member just give way on that?

Eluned Morgan AC: Of course.

Simon Thomas AC: Just to inform the Member that the committee intends to do another report, launched in the Royal Welsh Show, on food in Wales.

Eluned Morgan AC: Lovely. Well, I look forward to that. So, I’m glad that that is something that will be addressed. One of the things that you could focus on, perhaps, in that report, is the fact that there are over 79 million ready meals eaten in the United Kingdom every week. So, where’s our ambition to grow in this area? What’s the infrastructure, training and support that we need to put in place to make that happen? I highly applaud the emphasis put in this report on using public procurement to drive demand for Welsh produce. In particular, Welsh quality processed produce, but this must be a platform to drive the conversation with the big boys, with the supermarkets, who are the really serious players who buy our goods. Also not mentioned in the report was any reference to compensation for people who work on the land in the framework of the CAP. This is particularly important in relation to TB in cattle, or if there is a future outbreak of foot and mouth disease. I hope that’s something that the committee will be able to look at in future as well. Some of these issues will be explored in the economic development plan for rural Wales, which I’ll be publishing next week. In relation to the workforce and the potential threat if we were to restrict access to EU seasonal agricultural workers, a recent report suggested that the cost of fruit could go up by 50 per cent in the United Kingdom if seasonal workers were not allowed in. But it’s not just about the fruit pickers: 60 per cent of abattoir staff are EU nationals and 98 per cent of vets in abattoirs are EU nationals. So, the amount we’d have to pay British staff would be considerably more. So, the price of our meat would inevitably rise and don’t forget that this could be at a time when we’d be flooded with cheap meat from Argentina, New Zealand and elsewhere. [Interruption.] Was that a bit of mumbling?

Mumbling is allowed. [Laughter.]

Eluned Morgan AC: Mumbling, fine. Sighing, yes, we’re used to that. The costs of leaving the EU are clearly emphasised in the report, and the regulations that we adhere to currently support the production of high-quality food, and ensure the widest possible access to market. But it’s not just increased tariffs that we need to fear. If we leave the EU, and let’s not forget that those tariffs could be astronomical if we’re using WTO rules—a cattle tariff of 84 per cent, a land tariff of 46 per cent, these are huge costs—but there are these massive extra costs that could come from administration, in particular if we were outside the customs union. There’d be an increased cost in relation to rules of origin, conformity of assessment procedures, the need to reformulate products, labelling and packaging changes—[Interruption.] More mumbling. All of which—[Interruption.]

Carry on, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: All of which, the report suggests, could lead to a 5 to 8 per cent increase in costs. So, in terms of what we can do in Wales in future to support agriculture, I was extremely interested to read in the report about the restrictions that may be imposed by the WTO in relation to how, and to what extent, future payments can be made to farmers, and the restrictions, in particular, of environmental schemes that are limited to income forgone for the compliance scheme in question. This could massively curtail our room for manoeuvre in terms of support. I think this is a real worry. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary if this is an area that the Welsh Government is exploring. I’d like to, finally, thank the committee for its work. In particular, I’d like to thank the former Chair for his work; I hear that he’s done a very good job as Chair of the committee. And I would like to wish the new Chair, Mike Hedges, all the best for what I think is an essential area for rural communities.

I call on the Minister for the Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome the committee’s report, and would like to thank Members for—. It really is an excellent report and I think that’s reflected in the fact that I’ve been able to accept, or accept in principle, all the recommendations. So, I think we’re already making progress on some of the recommendations. I, too, would like to thank Mark Reckless for his work as Chairman and to welcome Mike Hedges to his new role. As the report recognises, farming accounts for the management of over 80 per cent of our land in Wales and, therefore, the future of our environment and the future of agriculture are fully intertwined. I think Members have raised some really important points this afternoon, and I will try to respond to as many as possible in the time allowed. Our White Paper, ‘Securing Wales’ Future’, outlines our views on the future of agriculture and the environment post Brexit. We are absolutely clear these are, and must remain, devolved. We will not tolerate any attempts by the UK Government to deprive this Assembly of its existing powers or deprive Wales of any funding. We will have our own Wales agriculture policy and I’ve made that very clear since we had the referendum back in June. It is essential—Members have referred to this—that Welsh Government plays a full part in discussions to ensure the UK negotiating position fully reflects the very specific Welsh context we have. Colleagues will be aware that I’ve been actively engaging with the UK Government and devolved administrations through regular ministerial meetings. We have had a hiatus. Simon Thomas referred to the fact that it’s been three months since the report came out, and what’s happened? Well, we have had a big pause of two months. We’ve lost an enormous amount of time over the general election campaign. I’ve had the opportunity now to speak to the new Secretary of State at DEFRA. Colleagues will be aware I mentioned that the June monthly meeting was pulled. We’ve now got the July one reinstated, following discussions by myself and my Scottish counterpart, because it is really important now we get on with this. We’re over a year since the referendum, article 50 was triggered back in March, and we really need to be making some progress. As a Welsh Government, it’s been a huge focus for me. It’s a huge focus for my officials. We are looking at scenarios. We’ve looked at the cliff edge that somebody referred to. We’re looking at all scenarios so that we are absolutely ready when discussions begin again. I have acknowledged that UK-wide frameworks may be needed and I still believe that to be the case. But I will not tolerate the imposition of such frameworks by Westminster and Whitehall. All four nations have to agree collectively any UK-wide arrangements and devolution must be respected, and any UK position that’s come to must reflect the interests of the UK as a whole. I made it very clear, when I spoke to Michael Gove, that he needs to be very clear when he’s talking for the UK and when he’s talking for England. I think one of the opportunities, because we have to look for opportunities in this, is that this—. Somebody mentioned it was once in a lifetime—I think it was Mike Hedges who said it. I think there is a unique opportunity for our stakeholders to help us shape policies going forward, particularly in agriculture and fisheries and environment. So, that was one of the reasons I immediately set up the ministerial round-table group—we meet again on Monday—so that we can have that input from our stakeholders. I think the work of the round table has added significant value and it’s really enabled a cross-sectorial approach so we haven’t had people working in silos. I think, again, we’ve led the way across the UK in that stakeholder engagement. We’ve really considered issues and looked at issues and discussed issues in a much more integrated way. We have got a number of sub-groups that have recently come about from the stakeholder group and one of them is on land management. That will provide further focus to this area of work. Jenny Rathbone mentioned that things have become slightly clearer. I think slightly clearer is the way forward. For instance, the UK Government just talked about the great repeal Bill prior to the election. Then, suddenly, last week in the Queen’s Speech, we heard there was going to be an agriculture and fisheries Bill, which we hadn’t heard before. We were being reassured that the great repeal Bill would be able to contain everything and we’d go from there. We didn’t think it would, and clearly the UK Government have come to that view also.Just turning to funding—and several Members raised funding—earlier in the election campaign, the Prime Minister visited a farm in north-east Wales and she declined to commit to protecting support for farmers after 2020. That has now gone to 2022, so, in answer to Simon Thomas’s question, whereas I confirmed agricultural support up to 2020, we can now confirm it up to 2021—obviously, the lifetime of this Welsh Government. But we need to keep pressing on this, because we were told that the agricultural sector would not lose a penny if we left the EU, so that is a point I keep making. I think the lack of a commitment post 2022 raises a lot of worries about long-term investment, because, when you talk to farmers, they have to look very long term—years and years—and I know it is a concern not just to farmers but to land managers, rural businesses, and rural communities, because they have to plan effectively. So, whilst we are waiting for further detail, I think it’s up to the Welsh Government to do all we can to protect our rural communities. Paul Davies mentioned that, when I went to committee, I talked about the small grant. Well, that’s the £40 million business farm grant; I didn’t like the word ‘small’ grant, so we’ve renamed it business farm grant, and I launched that in April, which is £40 million—£10 million per year for four years. That will enable farmers to invest in vital equipment and technology to help their businesses become more resilient, because that’s what we all want to see—an agricultural sector that’s sustainable, vibrant, and resilient. Jenny Rathbone mentioned about diversification. Last Thursday, I visited a farm just outside of Llanrwst where the farmer has diversified now into tree planting, and he’d planted 85,000 trees since March. It was absolutely brilliant to see this, and that’s the type of diversification we want to see and support. I’ve also fully committed the remaining £223 million of our rural development programme, which will provide some much-needed financial reassurance. Again, I’ve continually stated how vital full and unfettered access to Europe’s single market is to Wales’s economic success. Trade is obviously a reserved issue, and that’s why it is so important we’ve engaged. So, it’s not just myself that’s engaging but also, obviously, the First Minister through JMC Plenary and Mark Drakeford through JMC EU. Some two thirds of identifiable Welsh exports go to EU countries, and any significant reduction in access to the single market we know will be damaging. So, again, we’ve urged the UK Government to adopt this as a top priority for negotiation with the EU. Some Members mentioned the food and drink sector. It’s hugely valuable to Wales and employs, if you think about everybody—from restaurants and food processing factories, abattoirs, agriculture—0.25 million people in Wales. The UK Government seem to prioritise deals with other countries over maintaining our access to the single market, which is of concern, and they do appear willing to sacrifice sectors such as red meat in the interest of quick wins with countries like the USA and New Zealand, who are very keen to access our markets. By contrast, a key consideration for us is UK producers not being undercut by imports where production standards are poor, and where consumers are put at risk. The UK market is also very important to us, and I absolutely believe UK Government must play its role in safeguarding our food and agricultural industries across all sectors and regions of Wales. We’ve also sought to influence UK Government departments to promote our products through international trade work, and we also undertake significant trade efforts to develop the export market for food and drink ourselves, and I will continue to have a focus on that. Hybu Cig Cymru obviously promote our red meat, and we’ve just had a new board in place. I’ll be announcing a new chair, hopefully in the very near future, also, because the focus needs to remain on that. So, I just want to reassure Members that I will continue to face the challenge that we all have, and absolutely want to assure our stakeholders that I will speak up for Wales forcibly at every opportunity. Diolch.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank everybody who took part in the debate? We’ve seen a great degree of consensus breaking out over most of it. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response, and can I just thank everybody who either during the debate, or via messages prior to it, welcomed me, and can I just say thank you very much for that? Starting off with Paul Davies—it’s nice to go first, Paul, isn’t it, because everybody else has to say the same thing as you but in a slightly different way? I think Paul highlighted the need for devolved nations to have a strong voice, Governments across the UK to work together, and he highlighted the high quality of Welsh food products. I think that was echoed by very many other speakers. Can I just say, on my own experience of the high quality of Welsh food products—lamb, beef, cheese and butter in particular—I’ve got the stomach to prove it? [Laughter.]Simon Thomas—I thought he was going to stop after 30 seconds when he said he would give full support—. Unfortunately, he felt the need to go on for the next four and a half minutes. But I think he’s right, we do need to keep single-market access. The importance of that—I’m surprised that some people don’t actually see how important it is that you’re already trading with people—. Finding new customers is great, but giving up the customers you’ve got seems a very brave decision—the words ‘foolhardy’ or ‘stupid’ might be used by others. Simon mentioned something that I keep going on about—one of the advantages of coming out of the European Union is the procurement rules of the European Union will no longer apply. We can support our own local food industries. Far too often, many of us, in different places, doing jobs prior to this, have been told, ‘You can’t insist it’s Welsh lamb. You can’t insist it’s Welsh beef. You can’t insist it’s Welsh cheese and butter, because you have to obey the European Union rule and you have to go out to procurement.’

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Will you give way, Mike?

Mike Hedges AC: Please.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Sorry. Thank you for giving way on that item. Indeed, it does give us the opportunity perhaps to do more, but, picking up on Simon’s point, when he raised this, I think, in his contribution, actually, we’ve already shown that there are other countries within the current EU framework that can do that. In fact, the Welsh Government led on the work on that, with Professor Dermot Cahill of Bangor University, who showed that many of these so-called rules that prohibit us doing more with procurement were actually a load of baloney.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I say I agree with you entirely? What I was going to say was we could have got round it from the very beginning by saying all instructions had to be in Welsh, and make everybody in Spain, Portugal, and other people who wanted to export to us, produce Welsh packaging with Welsh instructions, and that would have stopped it.Neil Hamilton—with Brexit, there are lots of different views; yours is probably in a minority in here at the moment. But we’ll find out, won’t we, over the next two years. This is an experiment—not one that many of us would like to go through, but it is an experiment and somebody’s going to be right and somebody’s going to be wrong in less than two years’ time. Importing food from outside the EU, yes—but can I just ask how reliable will it be, what will the quality be like, and what quality of animal welfare will we see from it? I think that some of us are prepared to pay a little bit more not for animals to suffer. Huw Irranca Davies—he thanked Mark Reckless for the chairing of the committee. I think that’s very important because, although I’m replying now, all the work was done under the chairmanship of Mark Reckless—so, can I just again say thank you very much, Mark, for the quality of the report you were responsible for? Can I slightly change what Huw Irranca-Davies said: Luxembourg has the same power as Germany in the EU—I think that’s a much better one than Malta and the UK, because we won’t be in it much longer. I think he did raise something that was really important, the importance of part 2. Where do we go from here? Because I think that is the situation. Whatever happens, we’re coming out of the European Union—how can we protect it?Mark Reckless, thank you—it’s your report, so I knew you wouldn’t attack it. [Laughter.] The importance of bilateral discussions, funding—I think that is important—. I think that—. If you remove the support, do you think that hill farming in Wales would survive without any subsidy? We just had, earlier, members of the Conservative group saying how important it was that it got its agricultural support from European agricultural support. In fact, we had complaints that some of it was coming late. Well, actually, when we come out of Europe, none of it will be coming ever.

Mark Reckless AC: Will you give way?

Mike Hedges AC: Certainly.

Mark Reckless AC: Can I just say, it wasn’t my report, it’s the committee’s report as a whole? I agree, without subsidy, it will be very, very difficult to see that sort of sheep-farming landscape—upland farmers—survive anything like they do now. One thing we saw in the report is the value of that landscape to tourists and people who come to Wales and I think it should be a priority, with the money that we will have, to keep that.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you very much. Jenny Rathbone—post Brexit—. Well, the starting pistol has been fired. Our dependency on immigrant labour, we know. The effect of tariffs on lamb exports, we won’t have—well, we will have very, very few. And the quality of food is important. I think that something we all we all need to think about is what we’re putting in our stomachs. Eluned Morgan said it was an excellent analysis and congratulated the committee—another person who, after 30 seconds, would have been great to stop, but went on to say some very important things. World Trade Organization rules are there to allow everybody to trade, but it doesn’t make it easy for people to trade outside the trading bloc. Food processing is important. If anyone’s read my little pamphlet on the Swansea city region, one of the things I say is why we don’t get the benefit of the processing of food. We produce it and then the processing—the high value—goes elsewhere.Can I just thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response, welcoming the report—an excellent report? There’s the White Paper, which I think that most of us are in total agreement with, and that all four nations must agree. We can’t have ‘What’s good for England is all that matters’. The involvement of stakeholders, I think, is really important and the financial support until 2022 is probably the one thing that’s going to please lots of farmers coming out of what’s been said today. Thank you.

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Felly, derbynnir y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.

7. 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Adult and Community Learning

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on adult and community learning, and I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Motion NDM6340 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the vital contribution that part-time higher education makes to the Welsh economy, especially in our most disadvantaged communities.2. Supports initiatives such as Adult Learners Week and recognises the importance of adult and community learning opportunities to Wales.3. Welcomes the proposed support package for part-time higher education and part-time students put forward in the Welsh Government’s response to the Diamond Review.4. Calls upon the Welsh Government to:a) Provide an all-age careers advisory and education service which gives parity of esteem to full and part-time study options, supports progression for people in low wage employment, and recognises the wider benefits of adult and community learning to improving health and well-being; andb) invest in adult community learning to enable pathways for all into, and through, further and higher education.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’m very pleased to be leading this debate this afternoon on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group. Before I go into my comments this afternoon, can I declare an interest as a part-time HE student here in Wales? Further and higher education has a broad and beneficial impact on our Welsh economy and society, but it’s not just those who are aged under 24 who can contribute to this positive impact. That’s why I’m glad, fresh on the back of Adult Learners’ Week last week, that we have the opportunity to debate the current and future role that part-time education and lifelong learning plays in the developing nature of our country and its people.Before I develop my contribution, I just want to address the amendments that have been tabled. We will be supporting amendment 2. Plaid Cymru are quite right to highlight the level of uncertainty that our FE and HE institutions are experiencing because of the Welsh Government’s failure to confirm its proposals for student support and higher education funding for 2018-19. We firmly believe that there needs to be a proper three-year financial package and plan in place. But in terms of amendment 1, while I hear what the Government is trying to say about its plans for the future, I do believe that Careers Wales as it stands simply is not fit for purpose. It’s hugely under-resourced and it’s not delivering the sort of independent and bespoke advice that our learners need at the moment, so we will be opposing that amendment.So, whilst there’s quite rightly a focus on full-time further and higher education, this, I’m afraid, has come at a price of it becoming the assumed default mode of provision. When society thinks of students, I think it’s fair to say that most of us commonly associate this with a picture of those going straight from school into university or college. But a significant and growing number of adults wish to begin or to continue further or higher education at a different stage in their life, and we’ve got many people who need to overcome challenges to enable them to study. Negotiating their finances, finding a flexible course to fit around existing work and family commitments, or having to access course information can significantly hinder their ability to enter into part-time education. By 2022, a third of our workforce will be over the age of 50, and yet the majority of Welsh spending in education is primarily directed towards children and young people. At present, those between 18 and 24 will have almost 100 times more invested on his or her education by the Welsh Government than someone aged between 50 and 74. Moreover, when we look at the number of young people who are not in employment, education or training in Wales compared to people between 50 and their pension age who are not in employment, education or training, the figures are startling—more than a three-fold difference: 60,000 compared to around 200,000. Of course, this disadvantage is felt the most in our deprived parts of the country.So, the reality is that if we pursue our current trajectory, we’re in danger of laying a trap for our future economic development and personal well-being, because we will fail to utilise the full capabilities and potential of all in our workforce, and we will fail to develop that potential and that talent in parts of Wales that are already being left behind. So, faced with this demographic shift, developing the future framework and resourcing of adult learning is more important than ever to ensure that the Welsh economy has the skills that it needs.Adult Learners’ Week has just finished. It was its twenty-sixth year of celebrating and promoting those who’ve already undertaken the journey into further and work-based learning—a fantastic initiative, I’m sure that we would all agree. On top of that, of course, we’ve had the Inspire! Awards, which emphasise how education is one of the most useful and powerful tools that we have as an enabler for everyone, from any age or background, to positively shape and change their lives.So, it’s our intention, in debating this issue this afternoon, that we can move from the focus on full-time education to, instead, recognising the true and huge potential that part-time learning can provide. As the 2014 jointly commissioned report from the Open University and the National Union Students ‘It’s About Time’ argues, part-time higher education is about many things, but, at the end of the day, it ultimately hangs on one crucial factor, and that is time. Those returning to part-time education are often juggling other commitments. They’re caring for their families, they’re pursuing a career already, or they’re trying to overcome personal struggles to restart or redirect their lives. Sometimes, they’re doing all of these things together, simultaneously. Just over 40,000 people here in Wales are currently enrolled in part-time higher education. They’ve decided to set aside weekdays, in the evening, after work. They’ve made personal commitments, and they’re persevering, very often, through financial and family pressures to achieve a qualification, to retrain themselves, to upskill or to seek an intellectual challenge. And I think their commitment and willingness to invest their time, their resources and their energy means that we here in this place should also be making a commitment back to them and we should try to do everything we can to make the choice that they have made easier.But it’s clear from the current trends, I’m afraid, that adults are finding it more and more difficult to enrol in part-time education, because the numbers, in recent years, have been on the decline. Part-time learning decreased by 21 per cent in one year between 2015 and 2016 in further education institutions and there was an 11 per cent fall in those studying part time in higher education in the same year. In addition to that, learners in local authority adult community education in the same year also fell by a quarter. So, since 2011-12, there are 21,000 fewer learners each year in local authority adult community learning provision, down from 35,000 to just over 14,000. Now, I appreciate that the Government has looked to address entry into part-time higher education in particular, and that’s why we’ve been on record as welcoming the provisions of the Diamond review, the recommendations of the Diamond review and the trajectory that the Government has embarked upon. I think it’s absolutely right that that gives part-time students parity of esteem in terms of the financial support that they can get to access higher education. But, of course, further education also needs a boost as well in terms of support and access into that, and Diamond doesn’t actually address that in the way that many of us had hoped that it would.Turning back to higher education, at present the two priorities to address, of course, are financing and flexibility. We know that recent research from the OU shows that nearly a quarter of those in part-time higher education actually use their savings to fund their tuition fees, and another quarter funded their education through paid work while they were studying. But, worryingly, 17 per cent of learners, according to the OU, have used debt, including credit card debt, overdrafts and payday loans, to fund their tuition fees. These figures show that the current system is simply not working for part-time students.It’s not accessible, particularly for those who are in low-wage employment in those most disadvantaged parts of Wales. They’ve got particular challenges, I think, that we need to help them to overcome. So, we’ve got debt aversion amongst mature students, and I think that that also is perhaps contributing to this downward slide in the numbers of people who’ve been entering part-time higher education and, indeed, further education in recent years.Now, we know that postgraduate loans are going to be available from this September. I think that that’s a very welcome thing, but, of course, we need to ensure that there is some certainty beyond this next academic year for those postgraduate provisions, and indeed for all other students post the Diamond review. In the current system, loan applications for part-time study are open for submission later than those for full time, and these applications can be made only offline via hard copies, not online as with full-time students. Why? That’s not accessible, it’s not acceptable, and it creates hurdles—additional hurdles—for people to overcome.And for distance-learning students at the moment, it’s particularly discouraging, because they face a long delay between enrolling for a course and then being able to apply for a loan, and that’s why we’re calling upon the Welsh Government to provide an all-age careers advisory and education service, because, currently, potential adult learners are simply not getting the support that they need. They’re not getting access to that impartial information, advice and guidance in the same way that full-time students actually are. We also need to ensure that part-time finance options are clearly articulated to those students, so that people can consider those actively when they make their applications, so that they can be confident that they’ve got the resources in place, not just for the first year that they embark on their course, but right through to the end of their courses as well.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: In addition to that, there is some ageism in the system. At present, Student Finance Wales cuts off funding for those who are 60 and over in the year that their course starts. And yet, we know that the older people’s commissioner and the Arad review have highlighted the huge benefits of lifelong learning in helping older people to live more independent lives, and more fulfilled lives. And so I think that it’s really important that that ageism within the system is also addressed, because we know that if we’re helping to promote independence, if we’re helping to support older people, delaying a package of social care, even just for one month, could save £1.8 million a year on average to our annual budgets. In terms of flexibility, obviously we’ve got to ensure that those who choose to study part time are able to access it in as flexible a way as possible. We need to ensure that people can retrain, both within work and without work, in order to equip them to get back into the workforce, and we, for one, want to ensure that degree-level qualifications can be accessed on a modular approach, and of course many universities make those things available.So, in short, I do hope that there will be cross-party support for the motion that we’ve put down. We all agree, I’m sure, that education is a lifelong pursuit. We want to ensure that there’s that parity of esteem between part-time and full-time provision, and we want to ensure that there’s adequate independent careers advice to help people back into the workplace. So, I do hope very much that Members will be supporting the motion.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Skills and Science to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete point 4 and replace with:Notes the Welsh Government currently provides an all-age, independent and bilingual careers information advice and guidance service through Careers Wales.Recognises the ambition of the Welsh Government in developing a new all-age employability plan, a key part of which is the need for effective and joined-up careers advice to support individuals into the most appropriate educational, employment and training opportunities.Recognises the vital importance of adult learning and supporting skills development at all ages.

Amendment 1 moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end motion:Urges the Welsh Government to confirm its proposals for student support and higher education funding as soon as reasonably practicable to allow the higher education sector to plan ahead for the 2018/19 academic year.

Amendment 2 moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: It’s a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I’m very grateful for the opportunity to discuss issues related to adult education and community education. We’re always discussing schools, universities and colleges, and I think we are duty bound to redress that balance a little, and this debate today gives us an opportunity to do that. In preparing for the debate, the one thing that struck me was the fact that adults in Wales are less likely to participate in education as compared to other parts of the UK. There are a number of reasons why we should be concerned about that, but we know that people are living longer, the demographic is changing and patterns of work are changing. We’ve heard already that a third of the workforce will be over 50 years of age in just a few years’ time. The working career is getting longer, and there’s a trend for more people to change careers during their working life and to do that more often. But far too often, of course, lifelong learning is seen as something that is secondary as a consideration as compared to other structures within the education system. With the economic uncertainty that we’re facing, and the structural changes in the workforce—and we heard earlier today about the impact that automation is going to have on the workplace—it’s increasingly important that Wales has a flexible workforce, which is consistently learning new skills for employment and for the modernisation of working practices. The Government, of course, is working on a policy of 1,000 apprenticeships for people of all ages, and that is a policy that Plaid Cymru has, of course, supported and does support. But we should, perhaps, place the same emphasis, I think, on securing fair play for lifelong learning as well.Now, there are a whole host of benefits. We’ve heard of some of them emerging from lifelong learning: economic benefits, obviously, and social benefits, benefits in terms of the health and well-being of individuals. But what I think underpins all of that is the need to create a culture of ongoing learning in Wales, and to strengthen that culture, and in thinking of education, we shouldn’t simply think of schools, universities and colleges, but place far more emphasis on informal education and as we do in this debate, on community education and lifelong learning.It’s a debate that we’re having at the moment in the context of the education sector in Wales, and the debate on continuing professional development for the education workforce. The days when you got your teaching qualification and then you had four or five days of training to sharpen some of your skills—those days are long gone, and it is just as true in all other sectors. Given this current age where there are huge technological advances, it’s important that the workforce is flexible and keeps up with those advances.So, if we are to transform the economy in Wales, if we want to take full advantage of those opportunities, and if we want to demonstrate the innovation and flexibility that characterise prosperous economies across this world, then we do need a workforce and a wider population that is continually upskilling. To do that, of course, we need to look beyond those areas that we have perhaps traditionally focused upon. But we need to change the culture, as I said, in order to ensure that we reach that aim.For older people, of course, particularly perhaps people who have retired, accessing regular opportunities to develop and learn new skills is crucial in terms of ensuring that their health, their independence and their well-being are maintained. Many older people participate in adult education in order to have social contact, in order to improve physical activity, and to keep their minds sharp, and that is just as true and just as valid, of course, as any other reason for undertaking such education. So, investment in adult education is an investment that not only brings economic benefits but also, more importantly, wider social benefits.From the point of view of the Plaid Cymru amendment, of course we do encourage the Government to confirm its proposals for student support and higher education funding in particular as soon as is reasonably practicable, because vice-chancellors tell me that there will be young people who will need to decide this September what they will do the following September, and they need to know what the nature of the financial support will be. Those institutions themselves, of course, need that information, because it’s a difficult climate that they’re currently operating in, in financial terms, and they need that long-term assurance. Thank you.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Wales has an ageing workforce and society. A third of the workforce will be aged over 55 or 50 in the next five years. It’s a striking figure. However, investment in skills and adult education is heavily focused on young adults. This has been to the detriment of people aged 25 and over. In future, businesses will need even more workforce with higher skills, and new technologies will increase that demand. Yet, participation in lifelong learning is in decline. We need an adult education system that benefits our economy and boosts research. We need a system that recognises adults’ needs to study flexibly and provides the opportunity to do so. The demand for highly skilled employees in the UK economy as a whole is increasing. According to the Confederation of British Industry, more than three quarters of businesses expect to have more job openings for people with higher skill levels over the coming years. But, again, according to the CBI, 53 per cent of Welsh firms feel that they will not be able to source the skilled employees they need to meet future demand. Evidence clearly shows that three quarters of people in low-paid work are still in low-paid work 10 years later. So, the trend is clear: businesses require, and will in future require, a more highly skilled workforce.The emergence of new technologies is already having a profound impact on the job market on the skills needed by tomorrow’s workforce. A new approach to upskilling is required to ensure both that future demand is met and that businesses across Wales are able to take advantage of these new technologies. Sadly, the trend across Wales is for significantly fewer people to be involved in programmes that will help them add to their skills. Between 2015 and 2016 the number of adult learners fell by more than 23,000. The longer term decline is even more concerning. Wales saw a 25 per cent reduction in the number of adults participating in learning programmes between 2012 and 2016. In contrast, the UK Government has made significant progress in supporting the private sector to boost upskilling. The recent industrial strategy helped to create the right framework to incentivise businesses to invest in the skills base of their workforce. The UK Government’s strategy prioritises the Government working with qualification providers and learning institutions. This joint approach is working to ensure new courses are developed to enable part-time and distance learners to participate, and it appeals more to those already in the workforce looking to reskill or upskill. The strategy recognises that, to date, different organisations have identified skill needs in their own areas. However, no single organisation has been charged with identifying emerging future skills trends. The UK Government is therefore working towards a single joined-up authoritative view of the skills gap faced by the UK now and in the future. They’re assessing changes to the costs people face in accessing learning to make them less daunting. But first and foremost, the strategy recognises that high-growth sectors of the economy require corresponding high skill sets. It outlines measures to ensure that firms are able to contribute more to increasing the level of skills throughout the workforce.Presiding Officer, Wales needs this sort of industrial vision to ensure we can take full advantage of the new technologies and ways of working that will transform the Welsh workplace. We should teach the world, not learn from the world. There are certain areas, such concepts as adult learning, readiness for learning, orientation and motivation for learning—all these are motivation for our youngsters and senior citizens and men and women together. We are double in force and we can surely transform our economy, health and well-being, which were mentioned earlier. It can certainly help to get our senior people well educated and promote second learning in the workplace in this country. Thank you.

Hefin David AC: I declare an interest as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University. I want to focus my contribution on the importance of part-time education. I speak having had 15 years’ experience of teaching part-time students, and I guess that’s probably around 1,000 part-time students in that time, one of whom—just to demonstrate how well part-time students can do—was Alun Cairns AM. He went on to great things, that boy—very proud of him. The ways in which Wales has benefitted may be open to debate, but certainly part-time education benefitted him, and I can see Andrew R.T. Davies looking slightly nervous there as he realises that Darren Millar is studying part-time as well, at the same time. But I also recognise others of my students—Grant Santos, who founded Educ8, which is a training provider itself, and Humie Webbe, who is the work-based learning equality and diversity champion for the National Training Federation Wales, was also one of my MBA students, and a fantastic MBA student. So, I taught Master of Business Administration, the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants, the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, and the Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply—all these part-time courses that have a huge benefit for the students who study them. One of the benefits is that you can feed directly the part-time learning back into the work that you’re doing or the work that you plan to do in the future. A significant minority were undergraduate students, too, and that brings its own challenges, because those undergraduate students often didn’t have work but were studying part-time whilst working part-time in jobs that they didn’t want to do and were aspiring to go into other jobs.It’s a hugely valuable occupation and the level at which you learn will influence your future career. But what I’d also say to Darren Millar, in response to some of his comments, for higher education to be transformative, it’s got to have real buy-in from employers. One of the benefits I saw over those 15 years was the fact that employers were willing to pay some of the fees for their students to learn. That has declined in recent times, and particularly from the public sector. I saw CIPD student numbers drop, and the reason CIPD student numbers dropped was because public sector bodies couldn’t afford to educate their students, and it was a direct consequence of austerity. So, that’s had, perhaps, an unintended consequence on part-time student numbers from the UK Government. David Rees.

David Rees AC: I thank the Member for giving way. It’s not just the fall, it’s being given the time off—they couldn’t actually release them for the time, so they couldn’t have people to go in.

Hefin David AC: Yes, it was very much a resource issue—that they needed Wednesday afternoons and Thursday mornings off to study, and organisations simply couldn’t afford that. But what I would say is private sector employers and public sector employers have a duty to educate their people. Employers say, ‘What happens if I educate my people and they leave?’ Well, what happens if you don’t educate your people and they stay? It’s really important that you educate your workforce.One of the things that’s been in the news recently is plagiarism. Plagiarism is a problem, and a big problem with full-time students that deal with case studies. I found I could design my courses particularly easily for part-time students to focus on the work they were doing—so a cultural analysis of your organisational environment, for example, is very, very difficult to plagiarise and solves that problem to some extent. Indeed, one of the courses I got my MSc managing change students to do last year—before I was elected to this—was an analysis of the Williams report. So, I came here armed with some really good knowledge that was generated—and I tell you what, some of the analysis was real top-level stuff and would impress, I suspect, the Government Minister.It’s therefore really important that we continue to support our part-time students. As Darren Millar has recognised, pro rata support for the living costs of part-time students will be of particular assistance to students from more deprived areas of our communities, and particularly the northern Valleys. I’ve held meetings with Cardiff University, with Cardiff Metropolitan University, and had discussions with the University of South Wales about how they can draw their work out of the university and into those communities. It’s something they’re willing to do.Cardiff Metropolitan University have recently achieved the small business charter, and I gave evidence to the awarding body about the work that Cardiff Met did. One of the reasons they got that small business charter was because they committed to developing, not within the university their courses, but out in the communities. It will only be meaningful if those courses are developed in the areas that I talked about as the northern Valleys.So, for me, part-time education is key with the support of the employers. I think, actually, with the Diamond review, the Government is on the right track. So, I’m perfectly prepared to support the Government’s motion today, and I think this debate has the benefit of demonstrating the importance and huge benefit to students who study part-time. Part-time study has huge value and will continue to have huge value to our society.

Michelle Brown AC: I support this motion, along with the Plaid amendment. Part-time study can be vital to those who cannot afford to give up work but need to study in order to improve the future for themselves and their family. A healthy part-time education sector can be a major attraction for businesses looking for a new home that want the option of being able to upskill their workforce. It gives increased options for those who want to return to work after a significant period away, perhaps looking after children.Those most likely to benefit from part-time study are those who are most likely to need funding support, though. The upside is that they’re also the people most likely to be motivated to successfully complete their course. Adults attend study for different reasons and motivations than school leavers, and offer an excellent return on investment that justifies the investment of taxpayers’ money, apart from the benefit of improving people’s life choices. But there is still a need for young people to be able to access part-time education. A school leaver who has been failed by the education system, or has done poorly at school because of adverse childhood experiences, but who has a passion and the disposition to be, for example, an excellent nurse, will find it extremely difficult to make up for the deficiencies of their education in early life without appropriate advice and support.It is possibly inevitable that some people will need to work full-time and study part-time. But, during that time, they deserve the help they need and the funding required to upskill, so that they can help Wales fill the jobs that are currently standing vacant or being recruited for outside Wales. If a person cannot take part in part-time education, or if it is made uneconomic or impractical, or if—due to poor or absent careers advice—they don’t know what their options are, people will find it difficult, if not impossible, to overcome accidents of birth that saw them born into a low-income family or with adverse childhood experiences or that sent them to a failing school whenever or wherever that was.Good, accessible careers advice is vital for people if they’re going to take advantage of the part-time study opportunities that exist. For a person who has been out of education for, perhaps, many years, it could be a daunting prospect researching courses and applying for them without a good careers service to provide that helping hand. I will not be supporting the Labour amendment today, which displays the typical complacency of a party in Government that refuses to even admit that there may be room for improvement in the provision of careers advice in Wales. If Welsh Labour support the sentiments of point 4, why are they deleting it and replacing it with an amendment that says, effectively, nothing? Welsh Government says in its amendment that it has the ambition to develop a new all-age employability plan, part of which is providing joined-up careers advice. But an ambition falls far short of delivery or even commencing implementation. So, my question is, why, after nearly 20 years in this place, are you only now expressing the ambition to provide joined-up careers advice in Wales on an all-age employability plan? Thank you.

Russell George AC: I’d like to contribute today to this debate very much focusing on higher education and lifelong learning and how that links in with the Welsh economy. But there are two things I would be very keen to know today, and this is one: what course is Darren Millar doing? He told us he’s doing a part-time FE course; he didn’t tell us what he was doing. And, secondly, I would like to know from Hefin David what marks he gave to Alun Cairns. [Laughter.] I’m grateful for Hefin’s contribution; I thought that was a very good contribution. For the economy to grow, we, of course, need to ensure that we have the people with the correct skills and the correct training available to them. And for two reasons: one, to help them achieve their potential and, two, of course, to help us grow the Welsh economy. Now, regrettably, those without qualifications outnumber those who do have them in some areas of Wales. I think that should be a regret to us all. But the future generations commissioner, I noticed, warned about 70,000 school leavers leaving without five good GCSEs. This, of course, is at a time when businesses are facing a skills shortage and experiencing difficulties in recruiting the right staff to meet their demands. There are plenty of examples in my own constituency where businesses have moved across the border into Shropshire—or are threatening to—for, sometimes, two reasons: usually, the reason’s the lack of broadband, but the other reason is that they can’t attract the right skills. Sometimes, they remain in the constituency but they move to the very edge of the constituency, on the Shropshire border, to attract those people from Shropshire who do have the right skills. I think we need to break this cycle of deprivation and lifelong economic inactivity caused by, what I think is, poor educational attainment. Of course, there is a chicken-and-egg situation here as well. Industries come to me in my constituency and say, ‘Look, the local FE college is not providing the right skills for our business.’ So, I go and see the college and they say, ‘Well, we’ve got to provide the courses that are demanded by younger people. We’re providing the hairdressing courses, the media courses, et cetera.’ So, I go back to industry and tell them, and I say to them, ‘You’ve got to go into schools and sell your industry. Sell your industry and sell it as a positive life option and tell them about the higher pay that you can offer if those younger people go into those areas.’ They come back to me and sometimes say, ‘That’s good advice, we’ve done that’, and sometimes they come back and say, ‘Well, the school wouldn’t let us in.’ So, I think that’s one particular issue to address as well. I think Darren Millar touched on this in his contribution with regard to independent careers advice. I don’t think that’s happening at the moment, and I think it’s absolutely crucial that it does. I hope that can be addressed and I hope the Cabinet Secretary can make some comments on that. Also, Darren Millar, in his opening comments, alluded to the over-60s as well. He’s absolutely right: I’m only 17 years off 60 myself; 60 is no longer old. Don’t forget, earlier this month, we had MPs in their 70s and 80s being elected. So, there’s plenty—[Interruption.] Absolutely, I say to Dafydd Elis Thomas. [Laughter.] People in their 60s have 20 years of working life left in them, if they want that, and there’s an example in my own constituency: Dave Fields from Llanfyllin. He’s been accepted on a postgraduate course at Aberystwyth University, it’s great and he’s excited about that, but Student Finance Wales refused his funding. He’s been made redundant, he wants to work—he wants to work for another 20 years—and he wants to get the right skills to do that, but he can’t do it. So, I very much hope that—. I looked at a bit of research on this and could see that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee looked at this, but I hope the Cabinet Secretary can respond to that particular point. The last point of my contribution—I’m running out of time—is on breaking the cycle of deprivation and lifelong learning and economic inactivity caused by poor educational attainment. One way of doing that is through measures contained in the UK Government’s industrial strategy, which ensures that growing enterprises have the skills and support they need to create new jobs and prosperity. I would really like to see the Welsh Government’s response to the UK Government’s industrial strategy. I’m looking at the Cabinet Secretary over there, who I did ask in the Chamber—he’s not listening at the moment. There you are, he’s awake now. I did ask him if I could have a copy of the industrial strategy. You said ‘yes’ in the Chamber. I asked the business manager as well for a copy. ‘Yes.’ But all that Members have received is a covering letter to the Secretary of State for business, without the details, and refusing to give us the contents of that, saying that that’s an appendix. Please can you we have a look at that? I can’t see why we can’t see a copy of a Welsh Government response to a UK Government consultation. So, I think I’m running out of time.

You have run out of time. [Laughter.] Yes, not ‘running’. Thank you very much. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As a former visiting lecturer myself and a former director in FE, but most importantly as a mum, I also welcome this debate. The people of Wales can rest assured that the Welsh Labour Party—the party of the many and not the few—will safeguard, promote and increase educational opportunities for our nation. It may then be worth casting a collective eye over the border into England to see how the Tories value post-compulsory education and training where they’re actually in power. Let’s not forget, since 2010, 1.3 million adult learners have been lost in England since the Tories came to power. In England, over £1 billion has been cut from the skills budget since 2010 when the Tories came to power, and that is a 14 per cent real terms cut. The independent Institute for Fiscal Studies found that spending per head for further education in England will have fallen by 13 per cent between 2010-11 and 2019-20. So, whilst I greatly welcome this debate, unsurprisingly, as an educational professional, I shall not be taking any lectures from the benches opposite. Indeed, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives would do well to tell the Prime Minister, when she calls him next, of the good practice that is taking place in Wales under Labour, in stark contrast to England. Although, I fear that Andrew R.T. Davies may not be on Theresa May’s speed dial and I am reminded of the lyrics of The Feeling’s popular song, ‘I love it when you call / But you never call at all’.In Wales, the Welsh Labour Government’s deep commitment to this field can be evidenced by the recent Diamond review. The Welsh Government has put in place the most generous student support package anywhere in the UK, with a new emphasis on enhanced support for part-time students. We recognise the need and the investment. Wales is leading the way in fundamentally shifting higher education finance towards a progressive, stable and sustainable system that will support students when they need it most, and enable our universities to compete internationally. One of the most important things Welsh Labour has done in Government, in my view, is to make sure that the deep cuts being handed down by the Tory UK Government do not curtail the life chances of our young people. Welsh students in higher education have been protected from the crippling debts experienced by university students across the UK. The current level of debt for students from Wales is around £20,000 less than their counterparts in England. In their motion, the Welsh Tories call for an all-age education and careers advisory service, and they seem to have forgotten, rather, about Careers Wales. A wholly owned subsidiary of the Welsh Government, Careers Wales provides an all-age, independent and bilingual careers information, advice and guidance service across Wales.It is right that postgraduate part-time studies will now, unlike in England, be funded here in Wales, and I am grateful—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Will you take an intervention?

Rhianon Passmore AC: Yes.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: You mentioned Careers Wales. Of course, what we’ve seen—and I’ve had a lot of correspondence around this in north Wales—is a halving in the staffing levels there. We’ve seen numbers drop. Back in 2010, careers services used to see every pupil in years 10 and 11; now it’s around a quarter of pupils in year 11 only. Is that acceptable?

Rhianon Passmore AC: It is right that we invest in correct careers advice across Wales, and I’m glad that we are moving in that correct direction. So, I am grateful for the Welsh Government amendment that recognises fully the vital importance of adult learning and supporting skills development at all ages. Equally, as an adult learner myself, to conclude, I would not be standing here today in the National Assembly for Wales if it were not for the comprehensive opportunities and support that I was given long after my compulsory education was over. I know that this Government values not just the rhetoric, but in policy delivery, the outcomes for people of all ages across Wales. Thank you.

Angela Burns AC: I am going to be but a pale imitation, I think, of the last contributor who gave it her usual amount of great gusto. I am very pleased to participate in this debate, because I think one of the mistakes that we sometimes make is that we think education is linear: children are born, they go to primary school, they skip along to secondary school, they go to FE, HE and pop put the other end and get some kind of job, and then through their job they can do any number of skills. But we’ve got to face facts that an awful lot of children hate school. An awful lot of children have a really miserable time at school. They get bullied, they don’t fit in, and they have a huge amount of other pressures, particularly in secondary school when hormones are wreaking havoc. They may have families that don’t provide them with support. They may be constantly told that they’re stupid or useless or in the way, and they simply don’t perform well. We also have to face facts that about a quarter of our schoolchildren in Wales have some kind of additional learning need, which can range from perhaps a small amount of dyslexia all the way through to a significant and profound social, anger management or mental capacity requirement. So, our children come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and they all need to find their way in the world through different routes. They simply cannot all follow the same route. And I’ve met a couple of my constituents who have really inspired me with their life stories. One was a young girl who had her first child at 14, the second one at 16. In her very early 20s, she realised she did not want her boys to have the kind of life that she was going through, and so she went back to school. She didn’t have anything, and she went back to part-time and she got her GCSEs, and then she struggled on after a while, and she did A-levels, then she did a—I can’t remember the exact name of the course, but it was some kind of foundation course from the Open University—and she’s now training to be a nurse. And I have utter respect for that woman’s life path. A young man came to me, honestly, he was about 18 or 19, he could barely string a word together, he’d left school at 14 and all he ever wanted to do was drive a digger. And he had actually earnt enough money to go out and buy a digger when he was about 19, and he had all the requisite whatever licences you need. But his frustration was that he wanted to try and grow it and make it into a business, and we gave him a little bit of help, pointed him to a couple of grants and things like that, and he went off and got a number of courses under his belt. This must have been in about 2009-10, and he has now got business training, he’s got a second digger and he’s starting to employ people. Again, he wouldn’t have done that, he couldn’t do that going through the standard route that so many other people follow. The reason why he was able to do that was he was able to access part-time education. He was able to go out and carry on doing his job, earning some money and he went to night school, he went to Pembrokeshire College, and then he just went on from there.I think that when we look at adult education, we really need to look at it in a very holistic way and accept that an awful lot of people will not follow the standard routes. So, that was the first bit of this motion I really wanted to talk about: supporting progression for people across the spectrum.The second element of the motion that I wanted to pick up was around the issue of making older people feel valuable and part of our communities and ensuring that loneliness and isolation, which we talk about again and again and again in this Chamber as one of the great public health ills that’s slowly beginning to be visited on more and more people, we start to combat, and how do we keep people engaged? I’ve mentioned older people, but, of course, loneliness and isolation can hit you at any age, at any of the transition points in your life. You lose a job, you get a divorce, you are bereaved, something cataclysmic happens and you really struggle. The great thing, again, about being able to go into a part-time course—even if it’s on something that is just a passion and not about learning a skill in order to go out and earn money—is you’re building emotional resilience, you’re building confidence and belief in yourself and you’re making friends. That’s really important because most people need to be able to make friends. We live very insular lives these days. Some people are incredibly lonely. Never in our society has it been so true to say that we have so many people who are totally lonely in the vast crowd that is the population on our planet. I think that adult education and community education, allowing people, or enabling people, to be able to follow something and feel part of the great jigsaw that is the big life, is really is really, really vital. Not everyone will want to do it, not everyone will want to follow this path, but there will be some who are just crying out to have that level of engagement. If we close these doors and we take the money away from this kind of, if you like, slightly softer form of education, and just concentrate it on the hard stuff, we’re disadvantaging at least a quarter of our children, but an awful lot of adults who simply can’t join in the way an awful lot of people who sit in this Chamber have gone through education.

Thank you. I call the Minister for Skills and Science, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I begin my contribution today by thanking both the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this very important debate forward and all the people who have spoken? I think it’s been clear from the debate that, actually, we broadly agree the principles, which are that lifelong learning is extremely important to people from all backgrounds and all ages, and access to part-time education at all levels—. Angela has spoken very movingly, for example, of some of the examples in her constituency. Darren referenced the Inspire! awards—it gives me the chance to say that I was there to present the overall learner award, and I think it would be remiss of me—. That’s the third time I’ve presented those awards, and I’ve genuinely been moved to tears on all three occasions, but the best thing of all about those awards has been watching what the overall winners have done afterwards. So, this time, the overall winner from the first time that I presented it was there and she’s gone from a nervous wreck to a confident and self-assured woman, perfectly happy to speak on the stage and present the award to this year’s winner. This year’s winner was a nervous wreck but was able to see that, in a couple of years’ time, she’ll clearly be the self-assured person that the winner from the first year that I attend was. So, I think there’s no doubt at all—. Hefin and Rhianon also spoke passionately about the transformational effect that this sort of education can have, although, I have to say, I want to have a little word with Hefin about the people he chooses to transform, but that’s another point. So, I think we largely agree that it’s vital to provide people of all backgrounds and from all communities in Wales with the flexible opportunities they need to improve their skills and strengthen their employment prospects. That’s exactly, of course, why we are encouraging part-time study through the funding we provide to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to subsidise the cost of fees.The impact of this funding can be evidenced with the considerably lower fee for part-time courses in Wales when compared to England, for example. We were very pleased as a Government that, in this challenging financial climate, HEFCW has been able to maintain the level of its support for part-time provision. We’ve also been very clear, though, that we need to prepare for a more sustainable future in this regard, and you’ve all been kind enough to indicate that there is broad support for the Diamond review across this Chamber. I think that speaks volumes for buy-in in Wales for education as a lifelong pursuit. So, we’re looking to build a sustainable, progressive funding model for student support, and, in doing so, we want to make sure that we are bringing help to those who most need it. And we also want to ensure that we enable our universities to keep competing internationally, whilst allowing our students access to that. That’s why we commissioned the Diamond review in the first place, and it’s why we’ve given a great deal of thought to the practical implications of implementing the recommendations.I’m sure you all know that the consultation concluded in February. It gave all those with an interest in student support an opportunity to comment on the proposals, which were influenced by the outcomes of the review panel. The Welsh Government will be publishing a report on that consultation, together with confirmation of the higher education student support package for 2018-19, later on this year, in July. As the Cabinet Secretary for Education confirmed in November, we had largely accepted the Diamond review panel’s recommendations for an enhanced package of support for students, and this, I want to emphasise, will include parity of support for part-time and postgraduate students, which I think absolutely everybody who contributed to this debate expressed a view as being essential in this space. I just want to emphasise that, when this is introduced, as Rhianon Passmore said rather more passionately than I’m currently managing, this will be a unique package in the UK, of which we’re incredibly proud. I believe that that proposed system will allow the greater flexibility into our system that will encourage students from all backgrounds to get on and enter education in this sphere.People also mentioned employability. I’ve spoken quite often in this Chamber of the need to take a cross-Government approach to addressing the many barriers preventing people from entering and remaining in employment. Skills are obviously a very large part of that, but they are not the only barrier, and I think we do need to acknowledge that. So, we’re developing an employability delivery plan for Wales, and I’ll be saying more about this in the coming weeks. I’m going to resist the temptation to pre-announce my announcement. But, we’ll be bringing together the information we have on existing Welsh Government-funded employability programmes to consider what needs to change to meet the employment, skills and support needs of people who are unemployed, economically inactive—many people in the Chamber during this debate have mentioned the problem of economic inactivity—or those in lower quality jobs who need to be upskilled.I just want to acknowledge Hefin David’s contribution here around the employer engagement for this. One of the big things I ask of people in this Chamber is to always be an ambassador for encouraging firms to train. So, although we understand that many firms find it difficult to find the resource—and it is a resource, as David Rees pointed out in an intervention—of releasing their people, because we’re able to provide the training, but they do need to release the people. Actually persuading people of the business need to do that in terms of their own resilience, their ability to grow and their ability to continue to meet the challenges in their business environment is very important.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Julie James AC: Certainly.

Darren Millar AC: You will recognise, though, that some people want to train because they want to leave an employer to go elsewhere, and some people, simply from a personal enrichment point of view, will want to take up a course that has nothing to do with the employment that they’re currently in. So, I would just ask what you are going to do for those people to help them with those transitions and, in particular, those who want to study part-time FE courses, not just the HE. You’ve focused a lot on HE so far.

Julie James AC: I absolutely acknowledge that point. There are several cohorts of people whom we need to be able to address here. So, I was just simply making the point that, for those people in work and, perhaps, in a firm where they have some commitment but would like to advance in, and particularly in firms that want to grow themselves, that’s a very important point. I think the quote that was given was, ‘What happens if I train them and they leave?’ Well, more importantly, what happens if you don’t train them and they stay? That is a message we do need to get out to a lot of Welsh firms. We’ve got around 40 per cent of firms that don’t train at the moment. But I do take the point that Darren Millar makes about what happens to people who just want to enhance their own particular personal ambitions, if you like, and that’s why those Inspire! awards are often so important, actually. So, this employability plan will take into account the needs of people who do want to progress their career, perhaps not with the employer they’re currently with, but elsewhere. And one of the issues we’ll have to deal with is to make sure that the careers service and all of the other partners that we have—because this will be a cross-society partnership to make this work—actually signpost people to the right things, so that if you pitch up in the wrong place, those people can signpost you back to the right place. All of us, as AMs, will have had the experience of people trying to find that way, and I hope that you’ll see, when we announce the employability plan, that what we’re looking for is a simple and more obvious route to the right support for people, depending on what they want or what their particular personal ambition is. And I’ll be soon making an oral statement outlining that approach to employability.Many people have mentioned Careers Wales, and Careers Wales actually engaged extensively last year with stakeholders to identify a forward vision for service delivery and development, which they called ‘Changing Lives’. We’ve listened very carefully to the results of that engagement, and our remit to the company will now be taking that vision forward. Our national careers service helps clients to develop the skills needed to manage their careers and make decisions in a complex and changing world, but we acknowledge that we want to see all young people move smoothly and successfully though that into employment, and for adults to be inspired to take control of their careers. So, that plan from Careers Wales has a different focus on how they will achieve that, using the resources that are available to them, and I think they’ve embraced that well, actually. I think, Llyr, you made a good point about some of the things that have happened with Careers Wales, but they’ve risen to the challenge of refocusing what they need to do, and we will have to take advantage of digital and other ways of delivering that, rather than always face-to-face meetings—Skype and so on. There are lots of digital things. I don’t have the time, Deputy Presiding Officer, to indulge in that.So, finally, I just want to say to those who have raised the importance of adult learning in general that there’s no doubt that, as a Welsh Government, we recognise the important contribution that adult learning makes to the skills, employability, health and well-being of our citizens, and that’s why we remain completely committed to adult learning. We will shortly be publishing a revised adult learning policy for Wales, which sets out our priorities for this provision over the next few years, and reaffirms our commitment to providing opportunities for all learners throughout life. So, can I end by thanking members for letting me hear their valuable contributions, for letting me contribute to this important debate today, and to say that I think that, actually, we are largely in agreement, with some nuances that can be discussed as the coming months occur? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I call on Nick Ramsay to reply to the debate.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank everyone who has contributed to today’s debate, and thank the Minister for her comments? A debate that, as Russ George said, is about breaking the circle, and, as Darren Millar—our resident student—said in opening this debate, this is about social mobility. Many people want to pursue education at a later stage in their life, and there can be challenges for them doing that, so we need to make the transition from work to education as smooth as possible, particularly for adults who are finding it difficult to enrol in part-time education, and we need to see equity. Turning to some of the contributions, as Llyr Gruffydd said, we need to change the culture. It’s not just a question of money; it’s about a different way of doing things. And, in fact, Oscar, Mohammad Asghar, said it’s about new ways of working as well, and teaching the world, not just being taught by the world.Hefin, you made a very good point, going back to your experience of teaching yourself. You spoke about how you combatted plagiarism when you were teaching students. It took me back to many years ago, when I was first elected to this place. The now Minister for Welsh language and I were in a committee meeting. He probably doesn’t want to remember this. He picked up a committee report—Angela was there—and he threw it at an Assembly Member, and I will not mention him by name, and accused him of massive plagiarism, because it was all the bulk of what you’d written, Alun, but the name had changed at the end, hadn’t it? Yes. Those were the days, weren’t they?We learnt today, that Russ George is 17 years off 60—it’s not his birthday; it’s just he’s 17 years off 60, which, he told us, is these days not an old age. I could hear Dafydd Elis-Thomas heave a huge sigh of relief when he made that comment. I believe that he’s this side—our side—of 60, Darren, and not the other, but he did make the comment about breaking the cycle, and that’s what this is about. That’s what this motion is about. That’s why we’ve laid it today. You said it’s a chicken-and-egg situation. It’s important for industry to go into schools and to be welcomed into schools so that young people can learn at an early age what their interests are, so that they can then focus on those.Rhianon Passmore, you didn’t disappoint. You didn’t disappoint, did you? Sadly, you seemed to be more interested in Andrew R.T. Davies’s address book than higher education. I’m sure you can exchange numbers later, if you so wish. [Interruption.] No, that was just a joke, by the way; there’s nothing there. [Laughter.]You know, it’s funny: you spoke a lot about Theresa May and the UK Government—it’s not that long since the Members opposite would do everything they could do to avoid talking about party leaders, wasn’t it? Do you remember that, just before the election?

Mike Hedges AC: Not all of us.

Nick Ramsay AC: Apart from Mike Hedges. I even remember one debate where poor old Ken Skates was wheeled into a debate to defend Jeremy Corbyn. The look on his face said it all at that point. I mean, goodness me, I’m probably closer to Jeremy Corbyn than Ken Skates is. [Laughter.] Those were the days, but how things have moved on. Now, they want to talk about leadership, don’t they? So, that is a welcome change.Can I thank the Minister for her comments? You pretty much said—you summed up the views of the Chamber very well, I thought. We all want to get to the same place. We want to ensure that there is a smooth transition from work to education, back again, at different stages in people’s lives when they need that. We may have our disagreements, but I think that that is at the core of all our thinking as AMs. That’s what this motion is hoping to achieve, and I urge Members to support it.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore we’ll defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I’m going to proceed directly to the vote.

8. 8. Voting Time

I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal is not agreed, we vote on the amendments tabled to that motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 18, no abstentions, 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 18, Against 34, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6340.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 28, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 28, Against 24, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6340.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 51, no abstentions, one against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 51, Against 1, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6340.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6340 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the vital contribution that part-time higher education makes to the Welsh economy, especially in our most disadvantaged communities.2. Supports initiatives such as Adult Learners Week and recognises the importance of adult and community learning opportunities to Wales.3. Welcomes the proposed support package for part-time higher education and part-time students put forward in the Welsh Government’s response to the Diamond Review.4. Notes the Welsh Government currently provides an all-age, independent and bilingual careers information advice and guidance service through Careers Wales.5. Recognises the ambition of the Welsh Government in developing a new all-age employability plan, a key part of which is the need for effective and joined-up careers advice to support individuals into the most appropriate educational, employment and training opportunities.6. Recognises the vital importance of adult learning and supporting skills development at all ages.7. Urges the Welsh Government to confirm its proposals for student support and higher education funding as soon as reasonably practicable to allow the higher education sector to plan ahead for the 2018/19 academic year.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 52, no abstentions, no against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion as amended agreed: For 52, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6340 as amended.Click to see vote results

9. 9. Short Debate: Technology and the Welsh Language: Risk or Opportunity?

We now move on to the short debate. If Members are going to leave the Chamber, please do so quickly and quietly. So, we now move to the short debate and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to speak on the topic he’s chosen.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I thank you for the opportunity to have this short debate this afternoon? I want to start my contribution by trying something that will underline the point that I want to make, and make that much more effectively than I can, perhaps, in a speech. I don’t doubt that this will be perhaps the first time in any parliament in the world that Siri will contribute to the discussion, and will be quoted in the Record of Proceedings, perhaps, afterwards. So, we’ll try this now.Hey, Siri, what is the National Assembly for Wales?

Siri: "I couldn’t find silk appreciate can your telephone company and your music."

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, evidently, Siri hasn’t quite understood what I asked. I’ll try another one.Hey, Siri, who is the First Minister of Wales?

Siri: ‘Sorry, I can’t search that.’

Llyr Gruffydd AC: No. Well, there we are. We’ll try once again.Hey, Siri, do you understand Welsh?

Siri: ‘I rather enjoy what I’m doing right now.’

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, evidently, from that answer, ‘no’ is the answer, in truth, and that is a regret, of course, and a disappointment, because the future is digital, and devices like Apple Siri, which recognise speech and answer questions, are becoming more common in our everyday lives. But, as you can see, there is a risk that that digital future is a future without Welsh if we don’t show leadership and meet this challenge.This is the essence of my debate, that the Welsh language must be at the vanguard of technology, and this is going to demand vision and it’s going to call for action. It’s not excessive, in my opinion, to compare the current situation today—and I see this as an opportunity as well as a risk—with a historical event that happened more than 400 years ago.In 1588, a decision was made to translate the bible, for political reasons as much as any others, in order to try and assimilate Wales, which was fairly monolingual at the time, into the new, developing state. But, whatever the incentives were, in ensuring that the bible was available in Welsh, Welsh received a huge boost as a modern language in a rapidly-changing world. There is no need to emphasise how much more quickly the world is turning now, with new media developing and the world of apps and technological developments astonishing and enchanting us on a daily basis. Therefore, the period before us offers the same challenges in terms of changes, but this time in technology, the internet, and social media. Digital media is becoming a more central part of our lives, and we are starting to see a new generation of voice-controlled equipment. This is a very different challenge, I would argue, to the recent development of e-books, for example, and the internet. That was something written that allowed Welsh to develop naturally, and Welsh, as it has across the ages, has proven to be a remarkably flexible language. Voice-controlled technology, however, is very, very different. Some people predict that this is the beginning of the end for minority languages like Welsh, which will suffer digital extinction as English crowds them out. It is only English and some other major languages that Apple Siri, Amazon Alexa, Microsoft Cortana, and Google Home understand. So, if you have one of these devices, you will speak more and more English at home as you use them. I’m aware of Welsh households now where children now always speak English with these devices at home. There is a risk, of course, that it changes the language of the home, and that’ll be a matter of some concern to some parents, I know. But what kind of message will that send out to those young people in terms of the language of technology and the language of their future, and the perception that they have then of the irrelevance of Welsh in that future?There is a new opportunity, however, for the Welsh language. There is no need for technology to be the enemy. Technology like the written word, and the printed word back in 1588, can bolster the language, give it new platforms on which to flourish, and can provide useful tools to help people use it. The success of the ‘SaySomethinginWelsh’ online learning course is a cause for celebration. This challenge is also an opportunity to provide a boost for the IT and creative industries sectors in Wales and to use our bilingual expertise to gain fresh markets and to create new goods and services with innovative software. I know of companies in Wales that have developed software that can operate bilingually that have won contracts across the world because those countries are looking for software that can operate in more than one language.We’re all now familiar with the use of digital dictionaries and mobile phones, and Geiradur yr Academi and Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru have been digitised, of course. And the Ap Geiraduron dictionaries app from Bangor University has been downloaded more than 90,000 times and is used by Welsh speakers and learners alike. We should take pride in the innovative work that Bangor University is doing in this field. The language technologies unit at Canolfan Bedwyr in Bangor has run with the idea and is challenging the monopoly of the major languages regarding the technology of the future. It is also a challenge for the notion that tech giants can ignore minor languages and can try to force us to use one of the few major imperial languages that they choose, and, in truth, the minor languages, cumulatively, are much bigger than some of the major languages, and technological collaboration that is innovative and flexible could give us a lead on others, instead of us having to play catch-up all the time. Text-to-voice technology has already been used in Welsh, with work having been done by the RNIB for people who are visually impaired, for example. In addition, of course, the other side of the technology, namely the ability to speak Welsh to the computer, is already being developed, as we see with the Macsen prototype, a digital personal assistant, similar to Alexa and Siri, in Welsh. Bangor University is behind this as well, of course. If I have one specific plea to the Welsh Government, I’d like to encourage the Government to extend the valuable investment in the vital work on language technology there.In the past, economic development funds have been used to develop Welsh-language technology, and European funds were used to develop speech and translation technology. At present, there are two significant projects to transfer information to industry happening at Bangor University, where the majority of research and development in this field has happened so far. Small technology in Welsh grants from the Welsh Government have also been of assistance in the field, including the current grant to create Macsen, the first Welsh digital assistant, which I mentioned a moment ago. New opportunities are emerging now to use big data for minority languages such as Welsh. That’s why it’s so important that the Welsh Government and other public bodies in our nation ensure that all their data are open so as to assist research and development in our universities and in the private sector.It’s time for us now to look at a long-term strategy in this area and to invest properly in the technologies that are going to ensure that Welsh has fair play in the world of digital media. Done properly, research and development in the field of language technology could, yes, promote the Welsh language, but could also regenerate the economy. At present, there are 1.5 million jobs in the digital sector in Britain, and the sector’s going to grow exponentially in the coming years. By 2020, it is estimated that there will be 100,000 new coding jobs in Britain—two and a half years away. The global market is multilingual, of course, and there’s a great demand for software and devices that understand languages other than English. That is something that is growing consistently, and Wales can capitalise on the fact that it is a bilingual nation to create a prosperous digital sector of its own that specialises in language technologies. This would be a win-win situation for us: a win for the Welsh language and a win for the Welsh economy.As we face the loss of European funding, it is more important still that investment from Westminster and the Welsh Government fills that gap. I welcome, of course, the investment of £1.3 million in coding clubs in Wales that was announced by the Cabinet Secretary for Education recently, particularly given that one of the priorities that was mentioned there was the increase of Welsh language provision. It’s important for us to train the next generation to be ready to capitalise on bilingual and multilingual technological opportunities. But we need sustainable and significant investment from the British Research Council, the Welsh Government, and others, instead of the small, fragmented grants seen at present. This is an opportunity for us to bolster the infrastructure for technology and the Welsh language with a long-term vision for Welsh and the economy in Wales.The Government’s strategy to create a million Welsh speakers by 2050 is a challenge that we can achieve, but we need to accept that it is not just through Welsh-medium education alone that we will achieve that aim. Technology, and language technology in particular, is vital to realising this ambition. The world of technology by 2050 is almost impossible to envisage here today. My own children will be adults by then, immersed, I’m sure, in the new digital world, and the future generations to come need to know that all the benefits of this brave new world are going to be available to them in Welsh, and that’s the challenge. And, in accepting the challenge and responding to it with enterprise and innovation, we could be a more confident nation in facing the digital future before us and, maybe, in 400 years’ time, historians will look back at our success in responding to this challenge in the same way as was done back then—and that we recognise and appreciate the vision and the political enterprise that were shown today, and not just back in 1588.

I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to reply to the debate. Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m very pleased to have the opportunity to reply to this debate. I’m very pleased that the Member for North Wales has chosen this particular issue for his short debate. I do think that when we discuss the promotion of the Welsh language there isn’t enough discussion of this particular issue, and I am pleased that you’ve chosen to highlight it this afternoon. I look forward to officials in the Senedd translating what Siri had to say earlier on. I’ll make a point of looking at the Record of Proceedings in the morning. Llyr and I have discussed these issues in the Chamber on a number of occasions and I know that Llyr is very fond of words like ‘challenge’ and ‘risk’. I prefer the second word that he used, which was ‘opportunity’, because I do think we have to look at the changes that you have outlined and described very well this afternoon as an opportunity for the Welsh language. Too often when we discuss the language, we are thinking of it in negative terms and using words and statements that are negative. I want to look at the positives and I want to be extremely positive about how we can ensure that the Welsh language is part of this new world, and also works as a means of innovating for the future too. I think that each and every one of us has an opportunity to contribute to that. But, clearly, I do recognise that the Government has a responsibility and a role in leading in this area too, and I very much hope that people will see that the Government here has been leading in terms of our thinking and in terms of our actions. I think that both of those things are important.Deputy Presiding Officer, one of the reasons that we had agreed on the aim and objective of creating a million Welsh speakers was because of a decision that things had to change. We could have continued to manage the situation and language policy as we have done over the past 20 years—managing the way that we develop policies on the Welsh language and bilingualism, standards and so on and so forth. But, I think that there is agreement across the Chamber that things have to change and that means that we have to work differently. If you look at the way in which we consider the Welsh language, technology and the digital world are a clear focus for the kinds of change that we have to see and the kind of change that each and every one of us has to lead on. I know the kind of world that our children will be living in. It’ll be very different to the world in which I grew up—not just in Tredegar, but everywhere else. When I started work, there were typewriters in the office and I still recall persuading colleagues to use electronic typewriters. When the first computers came to the office, there was a particular office space allocated to it, with opportunities for us to visit that computer on a daily basis. When I explain this to my children, they look at me in the way that I looked at my grandfather many years ago. So, the world is changing and there will be continuous change. I am particularly pleased that we recognise this and that we can make an effort now to promote the Welsh language in this new world.I know that there is so much content, apps and software and so on available online and it’s far too easy on occasion for the Welsh language to be invisible in competing for attention with other languages, particularly the English language, and we have to recognise that. When I see my children doing their homework, they are looking online and the internet is available mainly in the English language, and we need to ensure a presence for the Welsh language. The technological market is a global market. In making business cases, major companies favour those languages with many, many speakers in prioritising and choosing which languages they support. We all know that. This means that it’s difficult for the Welsh language to compete for attention on occasion. I don’t think there’s any disagreement: no-one would have been able to envisage Apple’s Siri, Amazon Echo or Google Home. I’m reading these names and I don’t quite understand always what they are. When I was elected to this place 10 years ago, if someone had told me that Siri would make an appearance in this Chamber today, I wouldn’t have understood what they were talking about. At the moment, Amazon Echo only understands two languages: English and German. Siri apparently can deal with some 20 languages, but Welsh isn’t one of them as of yet, as we’ve seen this afternoon. They’re available today and Welsh-speaking families are living with Amazon Echo in their homes. We must ensure, when we see these new toys, that they are able to work through the medium of Welsh and understand Welsh, because that’s how we can ensure that the Welsh language can remain the language of the home where families do use the language on a daily basis. But we also know that 65 per cent of the people in world speak more than one language, many being multilingual. As a bilingual nation we have an opportunity and we must ensure that we can use this to our economic benefit in Wales, not just a cultural, linguistic benefit for Wales, but also an economic benefit. How can we ensure that tech industries for the future do benefit from our experience of being a bilingual nation here in Wales? We must ensure that we develop digital resources that are bilingual, available in English and in Welsh, and can do the same thing with other languages too. Once we have learnt how to use two languages—English and Welsh—then I’m sure that there are opportunities to roll that out for other languages and to show that there are different ways of making economic advances from this starting position. I hope and suppose that we can develop an economic case for investing in large-scale language technology infrastructure, such as voice-to-text technology in Welsh and the ability to translate using machines. Whilst we type into forms today, we will be speaking to our devices more and more in the future. Voice-to-text technology and artificial intelligence—those words were a test for me—through the medium of Welsh are going to be crucially important for the future and this Government understands that challenge. But we also understand that the Welsh Government doesn’t have all of the answers, and the Government has to work with the organisations that you’ve mentioned, such as Canolfan Bedwyr in Bangor. I spoke at a conference in Bangor some months ago. I do appreciate the kind of skills that we have, not just in Bangor, but throughout Wales. When I had an opportunity in Edinburgh to speak to experts there, I learnt that they need that kind of expertise too. So, we can create alternative networks and ensure that the skills and the expertise that we have are things that we can roll out and use to work with others, not just here in Wales, but across the UK and across the world. The experience of the National Assembly in using Microsoft Translator to translate the Record from one language to another does demonstrate the potential of machine translation for the future. How can we build on that good practice? There is an opportunity for world languages to collaborate—Welsh, Basque, Catalan, Irish and so on—in order to share resources. I will be visiting the Basque Country in a few weeks’ time to learn how they operate through the two languages that they use, and what we can learn from the Government of the Basque Country to ensure that we can collaborate in order to ensure that we add to the resources available to create some critical mass of skills and experience. We need to look at how technology brings communities together and take the Welsh language to new audiences and create communities of interest—from a Welsh-medium Microsoft to global learning communities. It’s an opportunity for us, an opportunity we’ve never had in the past. Technology allows people to learn Welsh in different ways. For example, the centre for learning Welsh has been working very closely with Duolingo, which is an app that many language learners use. Over half a million people have registered to use the Welsh language Duolingo. I had an opportunity to experience that during the Urdd Eisteddfod a few weeks ago. But this isn’t the only online service. Say Something in Welsh also provides a similar service for learners and has done for many years. So, there is an opportunity to enhance the Welsh language and deepen the experience of using the Welsh language and securing a place for it in the future. I’m very grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, to everyone who has been involved in this work with the funding that we have been able to provide in the past few years. Some developments have already taken place, but we can’t compete, necessarily, with some of the multinationals in terms of the scale of investment. So, we have to find different ways of investing for the future.In developing new technologies, how do we prioritise? I think that we have a role as a Government in investing and I am determined to spend time, money and energy in the best way possible. That’s why I have created a group of specialists, the Welsh technology board—those with experience in the field—so that they can provide me with advice to move things forward. We had an excellent meeting at the national library in Aberystwyth last week and I was particularly pleased to see the kind of skills that we have in order to ensure that we have an opportunity to invest our intellect and our creativity in this project for the future. I know that many people are doing important work already and it’s important that we continue to invest. The challenge for me is to ensure that all of these efforts are brought together.As Minister, I am more than happy to use the influence of Government to ensure that we bring pressure to bear on the large technology companies to make use of the Welsh language, and we will do that too. The digital sphere is an opportunity to think differently and to innovate. We must create a firm digital infrastructure and there’s a centrally important role in creating a stronghold for the Welsh language in the future. Deputy Presiding Officer, I am convinced that if we do collaborate, work with Government and Members in all parts of this Senedd, and work with national institutions and organisations, that we have an opportunity to secure the place of the Welsh language in the future, and a leading role for the Welsh language in the future too.

Thank you. That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:57.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Eluned Morgan: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on water quality in Mid and West Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: In Wales we have some of the best water quality in Europe, with our bathing waters having the highest quality in mainland Britain with 45 blue flags awarded this year. We also have plans in place to further improve the quality of our streams and rivers over the next 4 years.

Darren Millar: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on guidance issued to local authorities in relation to planning matters?

Lesley Griffiths: ‘Planning Policy Wales’ and technical advice notes provide a robust policy framework to inform land use planning decisions in Wales. These are supplemented with practice and procedural guidance and information when appropriate. We keep our planning policies up to date through regular reviews, informed by relevant evidence and consultation.

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government increasing energy efficiency in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: We are supporting domestic, business and public sector consumers with a range of measures to increase energy efficiency. Support includes our Welsh Government Warm Homes programme, the Welsh quality housing standard, Green Growth Wales support for the public sector and support to businesses through Business Wales.

Rhianon Passmore: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans to increase access to the countryside in south-east Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh Government recently published for consultation ‘Taking Forward Wales’ Sustainable Management of Natural Resources’. This paper includes proposals on improving opportunities for public access to the outdoors. The consultation was launched on 21 June. It will run for 12 weeks and close on 13 September.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on fire safety in North Wales?

Carl Sargeant: We continue to support the North Wales Fire and Rescue Authority to improve fire safety. We have provided £1.4 million between the three Welsh authorities for that this year. The results speak for themselves. Fires have more than halved since responsibility was devolved.

Sian Gwenllian: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on funding plans under the Community Facilities Programme for 2017/18?

Carl Sargeant: I am pleased to say that tomorrow I will be announcing awards under the previous community facilities programme. I will launch the refreshed programme before recess.

Darren Millar: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government engagement with faith communities in Wales?

Carl Sargeant: Faith leaders meet with me and the First Minister twice a year through the faith communities forum to discuss issues affecting the economic, social and cultural life of Wales.  This reflects the Welsh Government’s commitment to working with faith groups at all levels to promote understanding and foster community cohesion.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on steps the Welsh Government has taken to improve community safety?

Carl Sargeant: On 7 February I announced a review of the way public services work together to help make our communities safer. The Working Together for Safer Communities review is progressing well and I anticipate making a statement in the autumn outlining our ambitious shared vision for safer communities for future generations.

Mark Reckless: What Welsh Government schemes are available to help community groups looking to improve local parks and facilities in Newport?

Carl Sargeant: The community facilities programme is a potential source of funding for projects aiming to improve local facilities, including parks.  It is currently being refreshed and will reopen shortly for applications from across Wales. Priority will be given to applications from former Communities First clusters.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the consideration of bids for the 'Building for the Future' fund?

Carl Sargeant: My officials are working with partners across Wales in order to offer advice and guidance on the development of the detailed business cases required to allow appropriate scrutiny of proposals seeking ‘Building for the Future’ funding.

Mike Hedges: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the building of council housing in Wales?

Carl Sargeant: Since April 2015, local housing authorities are able to build their own council homes and have committed to deliver 1,000 new council homes under our housing pact with the WLGA and Community Housing Cymru. In your area, Swansea council are developing two sites which will be built to Passivhaus standards.